bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: We Can Only Experience  (Read 14415 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ciy

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 02:10:18 PM »

Dessa,

I believe you really have to hold strong to God's truths.  In the face of our carnality, which is always wanting to give us the power, we must trust in the doctrines of Christ even though we cannot see it that way in the physical.  We begin to reason with our own understanding and think that God could not have caused me to do that it had to be me.  No it was God.  God is all in all.  And, like Ray says, all is one.

I had someone that is in Bablyon and hearing some of these truths ask me, "Don't you think we make some of the little decisions especially those that have no big meaning?" 

See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head.  Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan. 

So I said to this person that there really are not any small decisions and there are no large decisions, they are all the same.  They all affect God's plan.  Think of what a small decision it would have been for Adolf Hitler's mother to have stayed up for another 15 minutes before going to bed and have missed the act of conception of little Adolf.  Small decision.  Big consequence.

God boxes us in to where there is no wiggle room.  He is totally sovereign.  So if the potter makes me a chamber pot, then I will not be free until I am over joyed at being a chamber pot.

CIY
PS - You are not a robot.  A robot has no feelings or emotion.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 02:19:56 PM »


Hi Dessa,

This email will give you a little more for you to think about.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------

Your concept that all will be saved is like almost too good to be true – but I must say it looks scripturally right.

         I am still battling on the fact that we do not really have a choice as to what we are going to do in this whole plan of God’s. Are we then just robots?

        With the love of Christ,
        Michael

         Dear Michael:  Regarding you last statement, Michael, you are not understanding properly. OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.       

        Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.

        God be with you,

        Ray

Logged

dessa

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2007, 04:21:25 PM »

Quote
We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
 
This is what I was trying to convey earlier.  To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use.  Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan.  Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God.  Do these words come closer to the truth? 

Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot.  Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.

Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa
Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 05:53:15 PM »

Quote
We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
 
This is what I was trying to convey earlier.  To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use.  Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan.  Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God.  Do these words come closer to the truth? 

Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot.  Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.

Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa

Hi Dessa,

I agree with you and wish to add a little more. A couple of years ago, there was a discussion very similar to this and I wrote Ray for clarification. I basically asked him if we were God's puppets and he the master puppeteer? In short, is our life being played out like a movie from a DVD. Everything is going to happen and NOTHING upon NOTHING is going to prevent it. Ray thought that this concept was NUTS!!! :) And he made it clear that he never ever said anything of the like. Unfortuantly, I think with the server issues that the forum has had since then, I lost his response.

I find it absurb, cruel and downright mean to even consider that the God of Love, is controling the actions of 4 guys as they brutally rape and strangle a sweet 13 year old Girl. That it was God who programmed there every thought and action, including the screams of the young girl. Does this sound like a God of Love to you, to anyone?

Let us look at this from another viewpoint:

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Word used for Draw in this Scripture is: helkō [G1670] (Strongs)

It's meaning is vital for correct understanding.

   1) to draw, drag off
   2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Let us consider this for a moment. If God is in control over our every thought, word and action, then why does He need to drag anyone to him? Does God engage in a battle of wills against himself???? Do the Scriptures teach this?

No, they do not. What they teach is that the world, including man is at war (enmity) with God.

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God

It is not, God against God, but God against Man, and drag man to him, God does; sometimes peacefully and sometimes with kicks and screams.

As for this not being part of the plan, perhaps we should have a closer look at what a plan is. A plan is basically a high level road map of what is required to reach the objectives from beginning to end. Of course the plan cannot cover every little or major thing that could go wrong; however, there are always contingencies factored in. If this happens, then do this, or if that, then do that. Is this not the same as a husband and wife with two children. They want their two boys to get a good education and go to college. This is the plan. However, while one student is an A grade student, while the other is C grade student at best. With this child the parents had to provide special attention, additional tuition, training, etc. But the plan never changed, both boys did make the grade, went to college and get good jobs. Just as was always planned.

Is it any different with God. Does he have to control everything to ENSURE it comes to pass? I do not think so. What then are miracles? are they just the accumulation of events that were put in place and meticulously controlled for eons of years. Or is it the impossible occuring when even the impossible was impossible to consider. God can do this, and does often. Can God cause things to happen that would not otherwise of happened? I know he can. The Scriptures teach this.

When we as humans work for a micromanager, we often look at them unfavorably and think that they must have no respect or trust in our ability, they HAVE to tell us What to do, when to do it, how to do it, and how long it is to take. Does this sound like a manger that respects his/her workers, trusts their abilities and is always willing to take their side? Not to me. :)  Which of these two managers sound more like God?

What judge would hold a man accountable for doing something that he HAD NO WAY of not doing. That if he did not do it, his family would be killed, etc. Yet, if God controls our every move like a puppeteer, then how pray tell will He the most Sovereign and just Judge ever hold the puppet accountable. The thought is sickening :(

But we are not puppets, and God is not pulling our strings 24 x 7. He only drags a few to him, and even then, some will still walk away. We know also that he as even predestined some to great things Spiritually. Likewise, he is the master potter; some people are the finest china, while others are little more than lumps of clay. He does not give the same amount of Spirit to everyone, some he gives a lot and to others little; however, the more he gives, the more he expects back. In this sense, God is much like an employer who expects great things from those that are paid well and little things from those paid a pittance.

God finds no pleasure in hearing screams of pain or seeing someone fight hopelessly for their life. Neither does he "Against his Will" control the minds of murderers and rapists and wife beaters. God is the God of love; where is the love, if God does control every viscious and sadistic move that a terrorist plots.

I will close with the following words from Timothy:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 

2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I think carnal man with the help of satan will be all of this and more. Whisltever one believes that God is controlling, manipulating and pulling the strings on every evil deed then who needs Satan?

I apologize if this post offends anyone.

Love to you in Christ our loving Saviour,

Darren

« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 06:05:51 PM by YellowStone »
Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 06:21:05 PM »

Hi CIY

You wrote: See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head.  Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan.

Of course God knows every hair on our head, he knows which ones are grey, which ones need cutting and for that matter which ones are missing. :)

He knows this, because everything is in him and he in everything. Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about, even the pauses between my words as I type this. God is not controling my fingers by default, rather he knows what they are doing.

Yes, a sparrow must die, and as before God knows when and why. He might know that the sparrow is aging and that it can no longer sustain itself, or that it is starving or was poisoned. He knows, because the sparrow is in him, and he in the sparrow. God designed the saprrow like everything else, with a limited life span; if conditions are favorable the sparrow may live many years, if not, then the sparrow may only live days. God also knows the circumstances that have occured and invariably will occur, just as you said. But not because he is controlling everything, but rather because he knows everything. If he wanted a sparrow to live a 1000 years, then it would live that long for sure. :)

I hope this is what you were saying.

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2007, 06:25:03 PM »


Hi dessa,

Here is an excerpt from Ray's audio transcript on - ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.  Hope this will help your understanding  :)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html -------

Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, “If Free will does exist, it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force.  People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.”  
It’s a feeling, nothing but a feeling.  
“The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it.”
In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will.  I mean you get up in the morning, you say I’ll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat.  This is all free, see.  Why is it free?  Because we PERCEIVE it to be free.  When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you don’t have it.  It doesn’t exist, it’s a figment of your imagination, it’s an allusion, it’s an idol of the heart.  It’s something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you don’t, you’re going to say you do.  That’s what it is, it’s an allusion at best.  

“That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.”  
Have I not said that through out my papers.  Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off.  Can he do that?  Can he not do what he DESIRES to do?  Yes he can.  
This is so profound.  This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer, “that a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.”  
I’m telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives.
 
You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that?  
The human brain, the human mind has the ability.  It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension.  That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it.  It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that.  But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God.  It’s tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.  
Everything has a cause.  Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you don’t have a choice.  So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.  

But when you check all the definitions of words, as we did. We looked at ‘free,’ we looked at ‘will,’ we looked at ‘free will,’ and we looked at ‘choice.’  They all point to the same truth, they all point to the law of cause and effect.  All of them do.  All scientific research and discovery point to the same truth.  There is no effect without a cause, there is no choice without a cause.  

But we read the definition, if it has a cause it’s not free.  Guess what…..you don’t have free choice then.  If free means without a cause, then you can make choices, but you can’t make ‘free’ choices, because there is no such thing.  If free will is something one controls, then by its very nature it is not free.  It is a self-contradictory term, it’s an oxymoron, it’s like dark light, cold hot, or true lies, it’s a square circle.
----------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2007, 06:39:48 PM »

Hi Kat,

Thanks for posting that, it was very interesting and made a lot of sense.

However, I would like to add that there is much, much more that goes into "choice" than a given circumstance alone. I think this may have been meant, but for clarrification only;  two boys may see their father beat and abuse their mother from an early age. Both lived in the same house, both seen the same things, except from the beginning, one felt justification for his father and the other felt hatred. One grew up doing the same to his wife, while the other grew up never even raising his voice to his wife.

But there is more to circumstances than the obvious; something caused the two boys to see things differently, their actions were the effect. Had their father never laid a hand on their mother, one of the boys may have still grown up to beat his wife.

Circumstance now, this very minute, right here could be and probably is the results of millions of causes and effects,  the cause that began the life of the tree/s that makes up my desk. The concept is unfathomable, including our actions, which may result from a DNA.

Cause and Effect.

Thanks and Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 06:53:38 PM by YellowStone »
Logged

ciy

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2007, 07:02:48 PM »

Darren,

Are you saying that you do not believe God is in control and causes everything that happens in this world?

CIY
Logged

rjsurfs

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2007, 07:14:10 PM »

Kat,

I agree...

Free Will is a beast... an idol of the heart that is very hard to let go of...

To quote some more from our Lake of Fire in the sections of "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed"

Quote
Why does it matter one way or the other whether man possesses free will or not? Would the future of the human race be changed somehow if man did or did not possess free will? Here’s how much it matters: If the basic free will doctrine and the eternal torture in hell doctrine taught by Christendom are both true, then man himself, and not God, is ultimately responsible for where he will spend eternity.

Quote
"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).

This was very tough for me to swallow the first time I read through it...  it is difficult to let go of the theology of man that you have been taught all of your life...  but for me that is what I had to do... try to forget those things I was told and be willing to accept the scriptures for what they say... not what a man behind a podium in a church of man teaches.

Bobby
Logged

dessa

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2007, 07:23:31 PM »

Darren,
My faith today agrees with your writings.  When I was about seven years old my granddaddy told me everything I did I wanted to do.  When I tell that today I usually add that given the choices and consequences we do what we most want to do.

My heart/mind constantly thinks how to best express myself in love and yet say what needs to be said.  Even when I goof I trust our Heavenly Father to make it right. 

I'm looking forward to brand new learning experiences after the conference.
Shalom,
dessa
Logged

dessa

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2007, 07:37:52 PM »

CIY,
I believe God is Sovereign.  I also believe His plan for mankind is far above mankind's understanding.  I believe each ones learning is at the place God wants each to be. 

In order to work out my salvation I must make choices. 
Shalom,
dessa
Logged

ciy

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2007, 07:54:26 PM »

Dessa,

I agree with what you wrote 100%.

You said, "I believe each ones learning is at the place God wants each to be."

To be in the place at every moment that God wants you to be then God has to be in control of every moment of your life.  Your wants are of the Lord.

Again just like the verse I quoted earlier.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD

Everything you say is of the Lord.  This is hard for us to really get a consistent grasp of because like the old James Taylor song "Goin to Carolina in my Mind" we can continuously go to Babylon in our mind and get back to thinking we had something to do with it.

Thanks for this thread Dessa and know that you are truly blessed of God.
CIY
Logged

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1531
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2007, 08:44:44 PM »

Darren,

No one is saying that God is evil.  However God created evil and He uses it to accomplish His purpose.

I find it very beneficial to continue to study the LOF series, especially the "Myth of Free Will Exposed" essays. 

In Part C of this series under the subtitle "Can You Handle the Truth?", Ray made this statement:

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can't handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.



Peace,
Rene
Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2007, 08:52:55 PM »

Hi Rene,

Just a quick question. Where in the New Testamemt (other than Revelations) do the Scriptures indicate that God is causing clamities, crimes, hate, and all of the things that are listed in Timothy:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 

2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Are you suggesting that God PLANNED all of this to happen, or are you saying God knew what would happen, after all He did tell Adam and Eve did he not and he gave Satan a free reign. God's plan deals with the salvation of the world, no one or nothing is going to twart that plan, not even Satan.

God gave man an evil heart, but it seams he is incapable of giving man the ability to use it. That the great creator that He is HAS to pull the strings.

Oops, forgot to sign off

Love to you Rene in Christ our Saviour,

Darren
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 11:26:29 PM by YellowStone »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2007, 09:13:37 PM »


Here is another emal that I think will help in this discussion.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ------

Dear Marcus:

I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it.  God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.

Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).

But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.

God be with you,
Ray

Logged

rjsurfs

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2007, 09:59:36 PM »

Since our purpose is to discuss and question what we learn on bible-truths.com, it may be a good thing for us to all reread part 15 of the Lake of Fire... for this is a main truth that differentiates us from those that contradict the Word of God.

We are here because we are like-minded in that we agree with scriptures... and respect Ray's teachings as the revealing of Bible truths.

I would really encourage everyone to read parts 1 through 14 first... but part 15 does stand alone pretty well.  There are 4 parts (A,B,C,&D) and starts at the below link:

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

I say with the most humblest of intentions.

Bobby
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2007, 08:01:41 AM »

Hello Beloved

Great line up of scriptures you presented to which I believe  these can be added :

Isa 45 : 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

Rom 1 : 28 And so since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome.


Dave you ask : isn't there a danger that we can become overly passive……

I believe the danger to become spiritually lazy, complacent, holier than thou or luke warm is a real danger. We have to judge ourselves and those not doing this exercise are indeed falling prey to the error of thinking that they will not be held accountable for their thoughts and actions.

Regarding the Sovereignty of God. Some I believe are most uncomfortable with this fact and others are okay with it and yet others rejoice in it and find the rest in God that His Will for us reveals.

From your contribution Kat of Ray’s response to Marcus, this stands out as a critical bench mark for me.  Quote :

God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2007, 08:19:30 AM »

Hello Darren

God does cause circumstances that result in evil actions thoughts and desires of unconverted man. God takes responsibility for this and is not GUILTY FOR THIS awesome responsibility that I believe only God can carry.  God does not desire and neither does God take pleasure in evil. No contest there and neither does Ray teach such heresy. Man takes pleasure in evil not God. God gives man over to his evil ways to learn not to trust in his own evil and wicked heart. Sin begets death and that is how man learns by and from experience the difference between God who is Good and is LIFE and Evil that is hideous and results in Death.

In Gods great Wisdom and Love HE has given man the experiences of  good and evil to contrast and eventually result in mankind recognising the Power, Wisdom, Love and Sovereignty of his God.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 08:22:00 AM by Arcturus »
Logged

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2007, 08:29:38 AM »

Hello Darren,

I understand your frustration, And while God is the ultimate cause of all things, God does not "force" anyone to commit such acts, they volunteer to do these things. WHY?

Because the creature [man] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him [God] who hath subjected [the same] in hope, [Rom 8-20]

So in the final analysis We sin, ALL SINS, " not just little white lies"  because God has made us that way. That is WHY we sin, but we DO COMMIT that sin, and are accountable, Well Chris, you speak out of both sides of your mouth   Not true, it is the Scriptures that teach us God M.A.D.E. us that way.


This is not a easy subject, scripture clearly states God made us weak with vanity, NOT WILLINGLY...ALL is of God....

Time to move on folks

Hope this is of some help

Chris R



Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: We Can Only Experience
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2007, 08:55:12 AM »

Hi Chris and Arcturus,

If I am hearing and understanding you both correctly, what you are saying is that though the circumstances are from God the "will, want, desire ir need" to do evil/sin is from man alone, with some edging on by Satan. Like: "Whose going to notice", "everyone else does it", "Why not?"

The will to do wrong is not from God, but from man and Satan, who was a liar and a murderer from the begining.

If this is what you are saying, then I am in total agreement.

Thank you both for your uplifting responses.

In Christ with Love,
Darren
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.048 seconds with 23 queries.