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We Can Only Experience
ciy:
Dessa,
I believe you really have to hold strong to God's truths. In the face of our carnality, which is always wanting to give us the power, we must trust in the doctrines of Christ even though we cannot see it that way in the physical. We begin to reason with our own understanding and think that God could not have caused me to do that it had to be me. No it was God. God is all in all. And, like Ray says, all is one.
I had someone that is in Bablyon and hearing some of these truths ask me, "Don't you think we make some of the little decisions especially those that have no big meaning?"
See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head. Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan.
So I said to this person that there really are not any small decisions and there are no large decisions, they are all the same. They all affect God's plan. Think of what a small decision it would have been for Adolf Hitler's mother to have stayed up for another 15 minutes before going to bed and have missed the act of conception of little Adolf. Small decision. Big consequence.
God boxes us in to where there is no wiggle room. He is totally sovereign. So if the potter makes me a chamber pot, then I will not be free until I am over joyed at being a chamber pot.
CIY
PS - You are not a robot. A robot has no feelings or emotion.
Kat:
Hi Dessa,
This email will give you a little more for you to think about.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------
Your concept that all will be saved is like almost too good to be true – but I must say it looks scripturally right.
I am still battling on the fact that we do not really have a choice as to what we are going to do in this whole plan of God’s. Are we then just robots?
With the love of Christ,
Michael
Dear Michael: Regarding you last statement, Michael, you are not understanding properly. OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?
Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.
God be with you,
Ray
dessa:
--- Quote ---We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
--- End quote ---
This is what I was trying to convey earlier. To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use. Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan. Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God. Do these words come closer to the truth?
Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot. Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.
Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa
YellowStone:
--- Quote from: dessa on November 02, 2007, 01:21:25 PM ---
--- Quote ---We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
--- End quote ---
This is what I was trying to convey earlier. To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use. Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan. Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God. Do these words come closer to the truth?
Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot. Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.
Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa
--- End quote ---
Hi Dessa,
I agree with you and wish to add a little more. A couple of years ago, there was a discussion very similar to this and I wrote Ray for clarification. I basically asked him if we were God's puppets and he the master puppeteer? In short, is our life being played out like a movie from a DVD. Everything is going to happen and NOTHING upon NOTHING is going to prevent it. Ray thought that this concept was NUTS!!! :) And he made it clear that he never ever said anything of the like. Unfortuantly, I think with the server issues that the forum has had since then, I lost his response.
I find it absurb, cruel and downright mean to even consider that the God of Love, is controling the actions of 4 guys as they brutally rape and strangle a sweet 13 year old Girl. That it was God who programmed there every thought and action, including the screams of the young girl. Does this sound like a God of Love to you, to anyone?
Let us look at this from another viewpoint:
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Word used for Draw in this Scripture is: helkō [G1670] (Strongs)
It's meaning is vital for correct understanding.
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Let us consider this for a moment. If God is in control over our every thought, word and action, then why does He need to drag anyone to him? Does God engage in a battle of wills against himself???? Do the Scriptures teach this?
No, they do not. What they teach is that the world, including man is at war (enmity) with God.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God
It is not, God against God, but God against Man, and drag man to him, God does; sometimes peacefully and sometimes with kicks and screams.
As for this not being part of the plan, perhaps we should have a closer look at what a plan is. A plan is basically a high level road map of what is required to reach the objectives from beginning to end. Of course the plan cannot cover every little or major thing that could go wrong; however, there are always contingencies factored in. If this happens, then do this, or if that, then do that. Is this not the same as a husband and wife with two children. They want their two boys to get a good education and go to college. This is the plan. However, while one student is an A grade student, while the other is C grade student at best. With this child the parents had to provide special attention, additional tuition, training, etc. But the plan never changed, both boys did make the grade, went to college and get good jobs. Just as was always planned.
Is it any different with God. Does he have to control everything to ENSURE it comes to pass? I do not think so. What then are miracles? are they just the accumulation of events that were put in place and meticulously controlled for eons of years. Or is it the impossible occuring when even the impossible was impossible to consider. God can do this, and does often. Can God cause things to happen that would not otherwise of happened? I know he can. The Scriptures teach this.
When we as humans work for a micromanager, we often look at them unfavorably and think that they must have no respect or trust in our ability, they HAVE to tell us What to do, when to do it, how to do it, and how long it is to take. Does this sound like a manger that respects his/her workers, trusts their abilities and is always willing to take their side? Not to me. :) Which of these two managers sound more like God?
What judge would hold a man accountable for doing something that he HAD NO WAY of not doing. That if he did not do it, his family would be killed, etc. Yet, if God controls our every move like a puppeteer, then how pray tell will He the most Sovereign and just Judge ever hold the puppet accountable. The thought is sickening :(
But we are not puppets, and God is not pulling our strings 24 x 7. He only drags a few to him, and even then, some will still walk away. We know also that he as even predestined some to great things Spiritually. Likewise, he is the master potter; some people are the finest china, while others are little more than lumps of clay. He does not give the same amount of Spirit to everyone, some he gives a lot and to others little; however, the more he gives, the more he expects back. In this sense, God is much like an employer who expects great things from those that are paid well and little things from those paid a pittance.
God finds no pleasure in hearing screams of pain or seeing someone fight hopelessly for their life. Neither does he "Against his Will" control the minds of murderers and rapists and wife beaters. God is the God of love; where is the love, if God does control every viscious and sadistic move that a terrorist plots.
I will close with the following words from Timothy:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I think carnal man with the help of satan will be all of this and more. Whisltever one believes that God is controlling, manipulating and pulling the strings on every evil deed then who needs Satan?
I apologize if this post offends anyone.
Love to you in Christ our loving Saviour,
Darren
YellowStone:
Hi CIY
You wrote: See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head. Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan.
Of course God knows every hair on our head, he knows which ones are grey, which ones need cutting and for that matter which ones are missing. :)
He knows this, because everything is in him and he in everything. Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about, even the pauses between my words as I type this. God is not controling my fingers by default, rather he knows what they are doing.
Yes, a sparrow must die, and as before God knows when and why. He might know that the sparrow is aging and that it can no longer sustain itself, or that it is starving or was poisoned. He knows, because the sparrow is in him, and he in the sparrow. God designed the saprrow like everything else, with a limited life span; if conditions are favorable the sparrow may live many years, if not, then the sparrow may only live days. God also knows the circumstances that have occured and invariably will occur, just as you said. But not because he is controlling everything, but rather because he knows everything. If he wanted a sparrow to live a 1000 years, then it would live that long for sure. :)
I hope this is what you were saying.
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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