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Author Topic: Adam's Book  (Read 5757 times)

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Adam's Book
« on: November 07, 2007, 02:51:51 PM »

 One of the many profound insights gained from the Conference last weekend was when Ray pointed out Genesis 5:1;

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Here is a quote from Ray;

"But what about the book of Genesis? Did God write that for Moses as well? There already apparently existed histories and genealogies of Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, and Jacob's children."

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

He goes on to say;

"And notice carefully that the history and genealogical descent of Adam and Eve was taken from a pre-existant "book."

Hebrew 
(Book) H5612
ספרה    ספר
sêpher  siphrâh
say'-fer, sif-raw'
From H5608; properly writing (the art or a document); by implication a book: - bill, book, evidence, X learn [-ed] (-ing), letter, register, scroll.

"Surely Noah preserved these records and books on the ark and passed them on to his kin and lineage.
Consider: Methuselah (born in 3254) knew his great great great great grandfather Adam for 243 years before Adam died in 3011. And Methuselah knew Noah (born 2885) for 600 years before he died in the year of the flood, 2285. After the flood Noah and his family settled in Mesopotamia (Iraq) where Abraham was born in 1995, and Noah did not die until 1935. Abraham knew his ancestral father Noah for 60 years. Jacob (Abraham's grandson born 1835) knew his grandfather Abraham for 15 years. And Moses of course is a distant grandson of Jacob.

These books and documents had to change hands only three times to arrive at Abraham on this side of the flood. Jacob and his family did not start out in Egypt as slaves but as guests of Joseph and the Pharoah. And somewhere in Israel for 400 years during their stay in Egypt, these books and records were preserved!

Some amazing stuff to be sure.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
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jER

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2007, 02:23:55 AM »

"His Words shall never pass away; ours are but for a moment."

- JER
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 08:28:13 AM »

Hi Darren,


   And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them [such things as they required]. And they spoiled [plundered] the Egyptians [Exd 12:36]

I suppose if you where to look at the Exodus of the Isrealites, they pretty much took whatever they wanted, i would expect plenty of papyrus also.

And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.[Deu 31:9]

I'm sure the events where documented.


Chris R


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2007, 08:50:17 AM »


Sorry Joe, this was probably not what you were expecting, but if one needs an example of how man's God given ability to learn and adapt, then the history of the written word is a good place to start. :)



Hi Darren,

Actually it is exactly what I have come to expect.

So you do not believe that Adam or antediluvian man had the ability to read, write and record words or symbols on scrolls or even books?


It is amazing how you continue to put words into my mouth with your most recent statement of dispute with me, you write;

"Very interesting; however it is far to easy to fall into the trap of seeing a magnificent leather bound book being passed down from father to son, from generation to generation."

If you read what Ray wrote with less motivation to disagree or be a contrarian you might have seen the following;

"These books and documents had to change hands only three times to arrive at Abraham on this side of the flood. Jacob and his family did not start out in Egypt as slaves but as guests of Joseph and the Pharaoh. And somewhere in Israel for 400 years during their stay in Egypt, these books and records were preserved!"

You find it a stretch to believe Adam had a language? I suspect the language Adam spoke in the garden was perhaps the most descriptive, poetic language the earth has seen in the history of man as this was the language Adam would have learned directly from the Lord, what did Adam use to name the animals in the Garden?

Gen 2:20  And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a help meet for him.

Do you suppose it was one grunt for a cow, two grunts for a horse, three grunts for a bird..............etc.

What was the language that was confused at the Tower of Babel? Is it possible, or probable that it was the language that Noah's family preserved from one side of the flood to the other?


Gen 11:6  And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have have imagined to do.

This is the first lesson in the history of the languages that I am aware of.

His Peace to you,

Joe


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2007, 08:52:10 AM »

Hi Chris,

I missed your post as I was writing when you posted, very good point!

His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2007, 11:41:40 AM »

Hi Darren,

Perhaps you should reread your original post and then contemplate your latest one and take your own advice when you feel compelled to respond to me or anyone else.

You could have very easily asked a question or made a comment without the sarcasm or that spirit of contention especially since you appear to be so sensitive to any sarcasm directed at you.

Darren this pattern of dissention and contention you have been displaying really puzzles me, are you seeking to be of like mind with the brethren here or are you motivated by something else? Are you now in disagreement with the articles and purpose of Bible Truths and this Forum?

I have been patient up to this point with your contrary, contentious views, but I must admit I no longer understand where you are coming from or what you are hoping to accomplish.


Pro 17:14  The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.
     
1Co 11:16  But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

My purpose in starting this topic was the hope members would meditate on the miracle which is our bible and to begin to contemplate how this precious gift journeyed into our hands, I thought (and still do) that Ray brought up a very interesting point in regard to Genesis 5:1, and also that God has used man and men to carry forth His Will, Word and Purpose throughout all the generations.

Do you think it is more logical that God dictated the genealogical records to Moses as he furiously scribbled down the information or that Adam (and others) indeed kept a record of these things?

Perhaps in the future you can disagree in a more agreeable manner and even to seek to understand what is being said rather than jumping to conclusions at most every opportunity.

Peace,

Joe




 
 
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2007, 11:59:34 AM »

It is obvious that man was endowed by God with language and that  gave him a distinct advantage over all of the animals. His language allowed him develop concepts and this led to the passing of these concepts to the next generation.

How this was exactly written in not important... like today the media probably changed... carved rocks and carved wood ( I am sure that generations where carved in their staffs, ) animal skins were always plentiful. Trade and wealth allows for any materials needed to be obtained. The patriarch were not poor.

Most important was time... many were leaders of large families with servants so they had the luxury of study time. In addition there were less distractions on a daily basis. No phones news paper or internet.  They had time to really think.  They also had time to discuss and talk about these things in their lives. In those days family and tradition  were important. Details were important.

Why did Judah give his signet and staff to Tamar as collateral. What legal documents did he need to seal? I have no doubt that there was writing being passed around and down through families.  How could they prove they owned the Wells or the burial places when they brought the bones back?

None of this is doctrine and it is all speculation, never the less it is interesting to think about it.  

Beloved
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UncleBeau

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2007, 12:02:13 PM »

I tend to get a little parched when there's so much heat in the way of true knowledge. Here is some wisdom,
We have evidence from the overall awareness that when Moses mentioned an animal (Which were clean or unclean to eat, ceremonial or not), no one asked which animal that was (or at least it wasn't recorded that anyone asked. How did no one get confused on what a coney was?)
There must have been some kind of record of this to give general knowledge of these things to the people. The Generations of Adam according to Genesis we believe to have been recorded in some way. The first attempt at their language could have just been their names in some kind of order. The thing you should notice about Gen. chapter 5 all together is which names were in order first to last. Why end with Noah? Why not Noah's sons? What I'm getting at is, Look at the translations of their names in order. There's a reason why it was recorded (in Genesis, not the original recording) in that order and I believe it'll give you something really interesting to study.
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joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 05:01:28 PM »

It is my opinion that: believing man was incredibly advanced in the "beginning" does not in any way negate the established Bible truths studied on this site--

I think that spiritually, Adam was just like us....ready to sin at the drop of a hat....but intellectually...the gene pool was surely superior...

isn't it the "law of entropy" that says things are "winding down" ? becoming "less and less organized, decaying, etc.?"  are our brains as good as Adam's? only if God has willed it....but it looks like we've lost a lot of abilities over time....we don't make pyramids as well as we used to...  :)

perhaps we invented computers because we couldn't remember things as well as Adam could...I don't know...Hebrew oral tradition required a good memory of the participants...right? perhaps things were simply remembered or rehearsed orally for some generations...eventually, over time, as we realized that we were losing our memory...we began to write things down...

at any rate...what do you guys think about these verses?

Job 19:23
"Oh, that my words were written! Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!"
Job 19:24
"That they were engraved on a rock with an iron pen and lead, forever!"

Job knew about writing...and that's going back "a fur piece" as they used to say in the hills...

peace bros!
Joyce  ;D
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2007, 07:11:36 PM »

It is my opinion that: believing man was incredibly advanced in the "beginning" does not in any way negate the established Bible truths studied on this site--

I think that spiritually, Adam was just like us....ready to sin at the drop of a hat....but intellectually...the gene pool was surely superior...

isn't it the "law of entropy" that says things are "winding down" ? becoming "less and less organized, decaying, etc.?"  are our brains as good as Adam's? only if God has willed it....but it looks like we've lost a lot of abilities over time....we don't make pyramids as well as we used to...  :)

perhaps we invented computers because we couldn't remember things as well as Adam could...I don't know...Hebrew oral tradition required a good memory of the participants...right? perhaps things were simply remembered or rehearsed orally for some generations...eventually, over time, as we realized that we were losing our memory...we began to write things down...

at any rate...what do you guys think about these verses?

Job 19:23
"Oh, that my words were written! Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!"
Job 19:24
"That they were engraved on a rock with an iron pen and lead, forever!"

Job knew about writing...and that's going back "a fur piece" as they used to say in the hills...

peace bros!
Joyce  ;D

Winding down?  I don't think so.  First of all, we're growing taller by the generation (do to better nutrition probably).  I think computers were invented to hold the massive amounts of accumulated information from all of man's knowledge.  No person could ever hold that much information in their memory banks.  The only reason our memories are weaker today than in earlier times is that we are not forced to use them as much.  Also, it is very possible that entropy would not affect our DNA in the least because we are not a closed system.  The Earth is almost a closed system but we as individuals (and our cells), are open to every outside affect on this planet.  Therefore, there is no reason for entropy to be passed along by generation unless the atmosphere and our food sources are causing a deterioration or progressive mutilation of our cells.  I realize that entropy is used to argue against evolution, but there are better ways of doing that.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 07:56:58 PM by musicman »
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fe32k

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2007, 07:29:04 PM »

It is very interesting though that Adam named ALL the animals. I am certain he did not name them to just forget what he named them a few days later. Amazing huh? I doubt anyone can accomplish this feet today. Except the Rain man!  ;D

Roy
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2007, 07:46:23 PM »

One of the many profound insights gained from the Conference last weekend was when Ray pointed out Genesis 5:1;

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Here is a quote from Ray;

"But what about the book of Genesis? Did God write that for Moses as well? There already apparently existed histories and genealogies of Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, and Jacob's children."

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

He goes on to say;

"And notice carefully that the history and genealogical descent of Adam and Eve was taken from a pre-existant "book."

Hebrew 
(Book) H5612
ספרה    ספר
sêpher  siphrâh
say'-fer, sif-raw'
From H5608; properly writing (the art or a document); by implication a book: - bill, book, evidence, X learn [-ed] (-ing), letter, register, scroll.

"Surely Noah preserved these records and books on the ark and passed them on to his kin and lineage.
Consider: Methuselah (born in 3254) knew his great great great great grandfather Adam for 243 years before Adam died in 3011. And Methuselah knew Noah (born 2885) for 600 years before he died in the year of the flood, 2285. After the flood Noah and his family settled in Mesopotamia (Iraq) where Abraham was born in 1995, and Noah did not die until 1935. Abraham knew his ancestral father Noah for 60 years. Jacob (Abraham's grandson born 1835) knew his grandfather Abraham for 15 years. And Moses of course is a distant grandson of Jacob.

These books and documents had to change hands only three times to arrive at Abraham on this side of the flood. Jacob and his family did not start out in Egypt as slaves but as guests of Joseph and the Pharoah. And somewhere in Israel for 400 years during their stay in Egypt, these books and records were preserved!

Some amazing stuff to be sure.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 


The only problem here Joe, is that we don't know for sure whether these are exact generational geneologies.  I think we can be sure of how old Abraham would be today but I'm not so sure of the prior generations.  Do the scriptures say that any of these people Ray mentioned, as being alive at the same time?  

Genesis states often that at a certain age someone becomes the father of another.  Yet in other times it merely lists the sons of one.  I find it interesting that Cush had sons: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteca.  Then imediately following, Gen. 10:8 states that Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth.  Shouldn't Nimrod have been listed as one of Cush's sons?

I'm only suggesting that possibly, the early chronologies list major figures and the ages at which that person had a son, who is the grandfather (great, great,etc.) of another major figure.

Basically, I'm suggesting that mankind has existed for more than 6000 years.
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 07:51:27 PM »

It is very interesting though that Adam named ALL the animals. I am certain he did not name them to just forget what he named them a few days later. Amazing huh? I doubt anyone can accomplish this feet today. Except the Rain man!  ;D

Roy

But give me time and I could list them on paper.  Also, a modern computer could hold thousands of such lists. 

Yes, I'm sure Adam had a great memory, but I betchya a computer would have been rather conveniant.  But I doubt that he knew how to make one.
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steve

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 08:37:10 PM »

  I may be missing the big picture here and if I am I'm sure somebody can splain it to me. I believe there has been writing for as long as history. History is a record of where we have been so far. Before there was a record called history, some describe a place called prehistory. If there was a record it had to be kept on something. If it wasn't kept on something, then how could we call it a record. A record is something that has a more lasting form than an oral tradition. It isn't a big stretch that if Adam or someone close to him was a central character in our early history then they could write.

  Papyrus has been used to record some of the oldest records outside of the Scriptures, it seems like a good choice for record keeping. Papyrus grows in water throughout the Middle East, surely the Israelites didn't wander in the wilderness for forty years without seeing water somewhere. This would have been a great medium for the original histories.

  I may have misunderstood, but I always accepted the idea that God inspired Moses to write Genesis.
This is kind of a "whoa" moment, that some of the histories could even have come from as far back as Adam.

Peace,
Steve
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 08:40:02 AM »

One thing that is  FORGOTTEN in these sort of discussions ...is the FACT Adam did not just have any man's language embedded in him.

1st Adam has the LIVING WORD of God in him and that is far superior than any known nano-super computer to date.

upon 1st Adam's creation there existed COMMUNICATION between God and man; and between man and beast, how else can man have DOMINION over the all the beast of the land.

Not until the 2nd Adam comes along and patterns how to put the Living Word to Use,,, is the Significance understood SPIRITUALLY .

However interesting the book of Genesis is, the FACT still remains, the BOOK is still a PARABLE !

milk and cookies
Rodger

Hi Rodger,

It is great to see you again and you raised a couple excellent points, one point was not totally forgotten though.  ;)


 I suspect the language Adam spoke in the garden was perhaps the most descriptive, poetic language the earth has seen in the history of man as this was the language Adam would have learned directly from the Lord, what did Adam use to name the animals in the Garden?


His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2007, 09:29:20 AM »


The only problem here Joe, is that we don't know for sure whether these are exact generational geneologies.  I think we can be sure of how old Abraham would be today but I'm not so sure of the prior generations.  Do the scriptures say that any of these people Ray mentioned, as being alive at the same time?  

Hi musicman, (by the way it was great seeing and talking to you at the Conference)

If you follow the geneologies that Ray provided and verify them scripturally you will see that their lives did indeed overlap, although it is not recorded or implied that Adam and Methusalah lived next door to each other or hung out on a regular basis, but they did share 243 years on this earth together, and I can assure you if my Grandfather or great, great, great, Grandfather was the very first man created by the Creator (walking with Him in Eden) I would (and I am sure most here would as well) be all over him with questions and would be listening very carefully to the answers.
 

Basically, I'm suggesting that mankind has existed for more than 6000 years.

At the Nashville '07 Conference Ray made a very compelling case for this as well.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2007, 09:34:35 AM »

 
  Papyrus has been used to record some of the oldest records outside of the Scriptures, it seems like a good choice for record keeping. Papyrus grows in water throughout the Middle East, surely the Israelites didn't wander in the wilderness for forty years without seeing water somewhere. This would have been a great medium for the original histories.

Hi Steve,

You are absolutely correct, there have also been copper scrolls as well, written languages existed in Egypt and in Sumeria as early as 3000 B.C.


  I may have misunderstood, but I always accepted the idea that God inspired Moses to write Genesis.
This is kind of a "whoa" moment, that some of the histories could even have come from as far back as Adam.


Peace,
Steve

It had the same effect on me as well!  ;)

His Peace to you,

Joe


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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2007, 10:50:12 AM »

Hi musicman,

Quote
Do the scriptures say that any of these people Ray mentioned, as being alive at the same time? 

I thinks Ray used a timeline that does indicate that there was people's lives that overlapped.  So this would make it possible for this "book" to only have to change hands a few times.
In a Bible study a few months back Ray gave a short timeline of important Biblical dates.  I will try to reproduce that here.

              DATES TO REMEMBER

Things make a lot more sense if we can put them into some sort of a frame of reference. 
Mobile - south USA - North America - earth - solar system - Milky Way Galaxy.............

We will start with Adam and Eve and move forward:

Adam and Eve ----------------------------------4000-BC
Cain murders Abel -------------------------------3900-              wheel is
Methuselah is born-------------------------------3250-              invented
Adam dies age 930 ------------------------------3000+               3700
Noah is born ------------------------------------2885
Noah's flood [Methuselah dies at 969] ------------2285
Babel, languages confused -----------------------2150+           copper & gold
Abraham born -----------------------------------1995                 mined
Noah dies age 950 [500 pre&post flood]-----------1935
Sodom & cities burned ---------------------------1900-
Isaac [Abraham's (100 yrs old) first son] is born ---1895
Jacob & Esau born -------------------------------1835
Jacob & Leah have 6 sons in 7 yrs -
[first children of Israel] ---------------------------1777
Joseph viceroy of Egypt [famine ends] -------------1700
Israel prospers in Egypt for 150 yrs ----------------1600           King 'Tut' reigns
Israel slaves of Egypt for 175 yrs ------------------1450            9 yrs - 1350
Moses leads exodus [Ten Commandments]----------1275     
Israel invades Canaan and
walls of Jericho fall --------------------------------1234          Pyramid building
Philistines in Canaan -------------------------------1190              in Mexico
Samson is born ------------------------------------1090
Samuel leads Israel for 40 yrs ----------------------1050-
David born at Bethlehem ---------------------------1034
Saul first king of Israel -----------------------------1025
David king of Israel - rules for 40 yrs. ---------------1000+
David dies at age 69 and
Solomon rules 40 yrs - begins building temple ---------965            Greek writer
Solomon turns all Israel to idolatry -------------------935            Homer - 800
Elijah & Baal priests ---------------------------------860+
Jonah - Assyria's enemy -----------------------------777         Hanging Gardens
Israel falls to Assyria --------------------------------700            of Babylon,
Babylon takes Judah - Temple burned -                                     Buddha in China
Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah -----------------------------600-        Confucius - 550
Zechariah calls for new Temple -----------------------520
Worship restored by Malachi, Ezra & Nehemiah --------450           Plato in Athens
Books of OT are now called Scripture -----------------350            Socrates 400
Temple built in Samaria and 
Alexander conquers Palestine peacefully --------------333
Egypt rules Palestine 100 yrs., many Jews in Egypt ----300
Septuagint: the law from Hebrew to Greek ------------250
Antiochus III of Syria conquers Palestine --------------200
Antiochus IV defukes Temple - burns the Law and
dedicates it to Zeus ---------------------------------167
Antiochus V rescinds decree against Jewish Law and
Temple is rededicated = Hanukkah --------------------164
Rome rules Judea -------------------------------------64
Herod the Great is made king of the Jews and
rebuilds the Temple -----------------------------------37          world population
Jesus is born -----------------------------------------4-3             250 million
Resurrection -----------------------------------------30AD
Titus demolishes Jersalem & Judea ---------------------70


Hope this helps  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 11:29:09 AM by Kat »
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fe32k

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2007, 06:33:06 PM »

Quote
I can assure you if my Grandfather or great, great, great, Grandfather was the very first man created by the Creator (walking with Him in Eden) I would (and I am sure most here would as well) be all over him with questions and would be listening very carefully to the answers.

Hi Joe,
But it is very possible that as all people today that take grand things for granted, being the first man might have been something that was taken for granted, not necessarily by Adam, but his Children and childrens children, and so on. I doubt that it was known what type of work God was doing on this earth, since a strange work it is. Just a thought...

Roy
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Adam's Book
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2007, 07:07:04 PM »

Just a couple of comments.

I remember listening to my grandfather (who died in 1957) and grandmother tell tales of the early 1900's and my aunts and uncles also would tell great tales.  I can assure you that what ever Adam said was told and retold through several generations.

Also on an earlier post it was mentioned that we are not running down but getting better physically.  I believe the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that any process degrades and erodes over time.  And our kids are not getting better nutrition than earlier American generations (or my generation).  Happy meals, cokes, and pop tarts just do not have the essential minerals and vitamins that our kids need to grow healthy bones and immune systems.  Growth hormones in chickens, beef, and all animals is the only answer for the tremendous growth spurt in the last 30 years.  They pump them full to bring them to maturity in about 1/5 the time and we eat it.  Just think that in 1964 the University of Alabama won the national championship with 1 man on the roster weighing over 200 lbs and he was a running back.  In 40 years now virtually every 1-A college has an offensive line that averages over 300 lbs.  You got to know something is not right.

Sorry for getting so far off of subject. 
CIY
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