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[Deborah-Leigh]

 Ref to   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0/topicseen.html

You know how Ray’s writings are alive with the life of the Spirit of Christ. Well, this statement caught my eye.  I wonder WHO are the ones which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom? Ray states in a response to an email excerpt follows:

Quote:
As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?

Unquote.

Is the match to this verse perhaps this one?

2 Cor 2 : 15 For we are the sweet fragrance of Christ unto God among those who are being saved and among these who are perishing; 16. To the Latter IT IS AN AROMA FROM DEATH TO DEATH,  a fatal odour, the smell of doom; to the former it is an aroma from life to life a vital fragrance, living and fresh.

So do you think that the ones which shall not taste of death are the ones who are reserved to judgement and the LOF? I think so. So it is better to taste of death daily than to be reserved to judgment and the second death LOF.

Just some thoughts.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Arcturus,

Thank you for this Eureka! moment!

Yes, I see what you are saying and I have to say with all the times I read this verse this is the first time it jumped out at me.

This certainly appears that the Lord is addressing the "second death" in Matt. 16:28;

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We can be sure that those around Jesus as He spoke these Words had no clue as to what He was actually saying, who at that time (before the crucifixion, resurrection and Pentecost) would have known of the difference between dying to self and  physical death? Or of the spiritual warfare that will eventually consume antichrist and the beast within everybody, each in his own time?

This was an eye opener for me and very much appreciated.

His Peace to you,

Joe
     
 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you Joe

It gives me much joy to have building up through God's word as others join in with witnessing of the Scriptures that come to their minds and hearts. Another Scripture to add is this one which is again found in one of Ray's email responses quote : Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.

I believe this verifies that the ones standing who will not taste death are those reserved to wrath? I believe so.

Taken again from Rays response in the same email quote : Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise. Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

The days are not evil for those who are wicked but for those who are being judged now, daily dying to self as you point out Joe.

Again from Ray's email response that is for me a encouragement for now in this thread. quote :
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[rjsurfs]

Arcturus,

So it is better to taste of death daily than to be reserved to judgment and the second death LOF.

Yes, I agree.  I have to do more study on those scriptures myself... I particularly am drawn to the phrase "taste of death"... as in figuratively for "experiencing" death.  We know literal death is unconsciousness... or without perception... as in Sheol.

I like several quotes from LoF... especially in regards to the Second Death in part 12 of LoF...

It is true that, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Heb. 10:31), but that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.

and

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31)

But it is still far better to be "in the hands of the Living God" than to be anywhere else! Even the of worst of scoundrels who have ever lived will fare far better in the hands of the Living God than anywhere else.

Having been "called out" of Babylon... and into judgement now is what I pray will indeed burn out the physical in me... the carnality... to be of a spiritual mind and not a physical, carnal mind. 

Bobby

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Bobby

Thank you for your contribution. Your post brings to mind this from Ray stated in http://bible-truths.com/death.htm Quote : All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead."

So those chosen who are being judged daily and now are as Paul says 1 Cor 15 : 31 I assure you by the pride which I have in you in your fellowship and union with Christ Jesus our Lord, that I die daily, I face death every day and die to self.

Those dying DAILY will see that the days ARE EVIL because they are a daily death and dying to self which is carrying the cross which not evil in itself but in obedience to Christ, is not a pleasant walk in the garden of roses but by contrast it is a journey through trials and tribulations. What an encouragement this has to be for those who are suffering, alone, going through pain, difficulties and upsets. In such there is hope. 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[jER]

Arcturus…that is what it means to "receive the Spirit" of understanding.
It does indeed release a fragrance with a particular flavor.

Mmmm…thanks for the cup of coffee!

 JER

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello jER

How many sugars?

Thank you for the compliment but I am not so sure I am right about this assumption or answers to the questions I have asked yet.

I was going to ask Ray but thought it was perhaps better to raise the question here in the Forum and try to get to the truth through discussion with likeminded brethren. Asking Ray would have been the easy way out and if he answered this question then perhaps this discussion would not have come into the Forum to make everyone who also wants to know the truth have to dig for it. I am still digging and I am still not settled to the apparent answer.

I know the Scriptures do not contradict so what does John 8:51 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if any one observes My teaching lives in accordance with My message, keeps My word, he will by no means ever see and experience death.

So far we have scriptures that seem to point to tasting death. Ray teaches us to PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS.  Are we doing this adequitely enough?  Is the TASTE of death the second LOF death? I think so. Is this what Jesus means when He says there will be those who SEE AND EXPERIENCE DEATH? I think so.

If this is so then what we experience in daily dying to self is NOTHING LIKE what the second death LOF is going to be. For me this too merges with what the Scriptures warn us. Better to die daily now in Judgement NOW. The teachings on http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html quote:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape [Gk: ‘sequel’] that you may be able to bear it" (I Cor. 10:13).

I'll let you check all the many Scriptures of comfort that God gives us even while we are undergoing all our trials and sufferings. Here’s one more good one, however:

"Blessed [Gk: HAPPY] is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has promised to them that love Him" (James 1:12). unquote.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I know the Scriptures do not contradict so what does John 8:51 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if any one observes My teaching lives in accordance with My message, keeps My word, he will by no means ever see and experience death.

Is the TASTE of death the second LOF death? I think so. Is this what Jesus means when He says there will be those who SEE AND EXPERIENCE DEATH? I think so.

I think you are right, this is referring to the Lake of Fire.
When I looked at different translations it helped to see what this scripture is referring to.

John 8:51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon." (CLV)

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding. (Rotherham)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

Thank you so much for that edification!  Yes the Lord knew about the Judgment and the LOF! Of course!
Who better to know that God is a consuming fire than our Lord Himself!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[fe32k]

hi,
the verse says "some" inferring that others will taste of this death, so it can not be the lake of fire. This verse is speaking of when Jesus showed the vision of his transfiguration to the two apostles. They did see him coming in his kingdom in that vision. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong.

GBWY,

Fe

[rjsurfs]

Fe,

If I understand your question correctly...

"Some" will "taste" or experience death in the lake of fire... others with taste it daily... now...

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Bobby

[fe32k]

Fe,

If I understand your question correctly...

"Some" will "taste" or experience death in the lake of fire... others with taste it daily... now...

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Bobby

Hey Bobby,
Seems like a stretch to me. Then the correct word would be "most" not "some." Here as an email from Ray which he posted today and why Arcturus is asking the Q:

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?  Answer--next verse:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?"  No. Read verse 9:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was all a "VISION."  It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).



http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html

It confirms what I was asking, but it does not debunk what Arct says as God can reveal deeper truths to anyone about any verse. The best example of this is when Matthew speaks of:

Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

as we all know, by reading this quote in Hosea 11:1 there is no indication that it is a prophecy. This kind of stuff cannot be revealed by flesh and blood. God just has not revealed to me that this verse (Matthew 16:28) is speaking of the second death. It's all very possible, but it has not pleased God to reveal this to me as of yet.

May Gods love and grace be with you,
Fe

[jER]

"Verily, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom."
…Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves. (Matthew 16:28, and 17:1-9)

And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste of death till they see the Kingdom of God present with power."
 …Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. (Mark 9:1-10)

"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Kingdom of God."
…Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. (Luke 9:27-37)

Why the two accounts (Matthew and Mark) saying six days, but Luke says about eight days.

Is it because Jesus often spoke of things, more than once, that were significant of things present (physical) and those things which are to come (spiritual)?

Did Peter, John and James see His Glory, only temporarily (in a vision), as a preview of that which is to come, when He (Jesus) was transfigured before them?

John surely must have had this in mind, when he said, "…And, we beheld His Glory…" (John 1:14). After all, he was an eye witness to the life of Christ.

Peter also said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." (2 Peter 1:16-18)

Could it be that there were those, then, who had not presently tasted of the physical death, as well as that of the second death, perhaps, those who will not see until - "they see"…in the presence of  the Lamb (Revelation 14:10)?

I believe that Marks words are closer to the meaning of His Words – "present with power," than that given by  Luke or even Matthew, and represents the second coming of Christ in His (Fathers) Glory, not merely as a preview (vision) of things to come.

Regardless of the type of Death; Physical or Spiritual - Jesus spoke the truth, as there were those who had not yet tasted the first death (although they are long dead by now), and there are those who will/shall not taste of the second death, until they are in His Presence!

When the Lord comes EVERYONE will be resurrected; the righteous to the resurrection of life and the unrighteous to the resurrection of judgment. Those who do not go through judgment in this present life will be "Judged" at the Great White Throne Judgment.

God defines the "Judgment" as returning back to righteousness, or setting things right (Psalm 94:15)

JER

The Second Death is the dying to, or death of sin – for the fleshly mind is enmity against God.

[Robin]

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).

I don't have much to say, but wanted to post this verse for consideration.

Luke 17:20-22
 20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

[hillsbororiver]

hi,
the verse says "some" inferring that others will taste of this death, so it can not be the lake of fire. This verse is speaking of when Jesus showed the vision of his transfiguration to the two apostles. They did see him coming in his kingdom in that vision. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong.

GBWY,

Fe

Hi Fe,

Not wrong but half right!

I previously saw this as you, but now I believe Arcturus did find another layer of Truth in this verse, Jesus is and was speaking to not only those present before Him but for all generations that would read (or hear) His Words.

If you look at what He said we can see that this very well could be applied to those who were to be standing there with Him at His transfiguration as well as those who are alive at His coming and do not taste physical death but are "changed in the twinkling of an eye" and also of those who would be converted (2nd death) after His return.

One of the keys I have picked up from Ray is how we should look beyond the physical "in the moment" application of the Word of God and search for the eternal (is, was and will be) principle in understanding His Word as well.

Just as we can apply what Jesus spoke to the Pharisees to some in every church in every generation, just as the letters to the churches from Paul is applicable to churches through every generation and as the Revelation of Jesus Christ presented to John is relevant to all the churches to every generation.

This is how I presently see it.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joe

I believe you have nailed and brought clarity to another principle axiom taught via Ray, in how to understand the Word of God. You so aptly brought forward this, quote  :  Jesus is and was speaking to not only those present before Him but for all generations that would read (or hear) His Words....(is, was and will be) principle in understanding His Word as well. It is one thing to read it as an academic bit of information, and quite another to exercise this knowledge and APPLY IT!

For me the Bible is not only speaking to us/me it is speaking AT US/me. How we/I receive the Word of God returns back to God not empty but in how we are/I am seeing, hearing, accepting, rejecting, scoffing at or embracing and believing His Word is TO US PERSONALY!

Try reading Paul's letter to Timothy and put your name there instead!

Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that IS IN Christ Jesus, To Joe, Bobby, jER, Kat, Fe, MG and Arcturus (line up indicates posters in order of receipt on this Thread for example only not meaning to leave out anyone anywhere but including all reading this!) my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord! 2Tim 1:1,2

 

I am content to have shared what I saw in part which became this insight and have found blessing and encouragement from the truths brought forward to assist in understanding.

Thank you Joe for reminding all of us about the Truths and Tools Ray has shared with us to help us to understand Gods Word. Thank you to all who brought forward scriptures for consideration, contemplation and benefit to our combined efforts to see deeper, hear better and comprehend more clearly the Spirit and Mind of Christ. This is I believe what the Forum is for.

Peace be to you

Arcturus