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Author Topic: God is creating (present) man in His image?  (Read 22917 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2006, 02:35:05 AM »

Im a baby in all this, but i can certainly see the errors in Lightseekers post. Not blaming Him for them, but someone needs to Show Him where there is an error.

JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)

ECCLESIASTES 9:2 All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. 3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. (NIV)

PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence; (NASB)

When a MAN DIES, HIS SPIRIT DEPARTS. His thoughts THEY PERISH. Why do they perish? Because man is a LIVING SOUL. When man dies, HE IS A DEAD SOUL. That breath of life given to Him is GONE. His SPIRIT DEPARTS. IF you want to look at the Breath of life as the SPIRIT giving part then think of DEATH as the TAKING AWAY PART of it.

PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (NASB)

When you die, you do not Descend into heaven, or hell, yada yada yada, you SLEEP.

ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)

About the Trinity thing, its completely false.

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Where or how did Jesus come about into existence?

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

Jesus plainly tells:

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

So who exactly is Jesus in relationship to God?

Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, FIRSTBORN of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).


Jesus One day will subject HIMSELF to GOD THE FATHER.

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all"

So as you can see, Jesus is Clearly of God, but the best way to Explain Jesus is with these Scriptures, and i always looked at Him as the way Ray put it.

Man and Women cleave to eachother and become ONE FLESH. So is God the Father and Jesus ONE in this same thought. To expound on this, i believe Ray says that Jesus has a GOD, but GOD THE FATHER DOES NOT. Still with all thsi there is no THIRD BEING to God the Father. There is only CHRIST JESUS. Who is the "IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD."

I did my best with what little Knoweldge God has bestowed me with, I hope it helps however small that help might be.

God bless :)
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2006, 06:18:51 PM »

lilitalienboi16

Let me preface this by saying what I think a man is:

spirit: (masculine in gender) the animating life force of a man.
soul: (feminine in gender), the motivating life force of a man (mind, will, emotions).
body: male or female, the mobile home that spirit, soul indwell.

Man is three and salvation is three.  A spirit must be justified a soul must be sanctified and a body must be glorified.  The spirit is saved by His death on the cross.  The soul is saved (worked out) by dying to self (our mind, will, emotion) putting on His mind/soul eg. the mind of Christ, with resurrection life. In doing so we once again become a living soul in that yielded area of our life.  And the body will receive glory based upon how much of the soul was renewed. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Quote
JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)

Read your Job quote carefully.  What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind).  So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit?  Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?  
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul?  Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep.  I honestly don't know for sure.  

Quote
PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he (the dust) returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts (soul) perish. (NASB) [/color]


His spirit departs....where to...the Father from whence it came. He returns to the earth...He who?...the body.  His thoughts (soul mind will emotions) perish...His thoughts...but what about those thoughts that are of God.  Thoughts which will remain for the day of rewards where our reward is based upon conforming our mind to His mind.  I believe soul sleep may have some merit.  But as I said earlier I'm not sure.  The fact that the soul that sins it shall die is scriptural.  Wonder why it didn't say he will die?  The grave is a judgment of God for both the 'bodyof sin' and the still 'rebellious soul' (those parts not yet yielded in this life).  

Quote
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)

About the Trinity thing, its completely false.
 

I'm not as sure as you are.  That's why I keep asking the questions I do.  And awaiting answers I never get.

Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not?  Is that not sort of a triune being?  If not, please explain.
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sparkyman481

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2006, 08:39:06 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker


Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not?  Is that not sort of a triune being?  If not, please explain.



1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom 8:9-10  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ecc 8:8  There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

(1 Corinthians 6:17)  But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

(1 Corinthians 12:13)  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Ephesians 4:4)  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

(Philippians 1:27)  Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.
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nightmare sasuke

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2006, 11:37:31 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
lilitalienboi16

Let me preface this by saying what I think a man is:

spirit: (masculine in gender) the animating life force of a man.
soul: (feminine in gender), the motivating life force of a man (mind, will, emotions).
body: male or female, the mobile home that spirit, soul indwell.

Man is three and salvation is three.  A spirit must be justified a soul must be sanctified and a body must be glorified.  The spirit is saved by His death on the cross.  The soul is saved (worked out) by dying to self (our mind, will, emotion) putting on His mind/soul eg. the mind of Christ, with resurrection life. In doing so we once again become a living soul in that yielded area of our life.  And the body will receive glory based upon how much of the soul was renewed. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Quote
JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their SLEEP. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)

Read your Job quote carefully.  What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind).  So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit?  Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?  
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul?  Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep.  I honestly don't know for sure.  

Quote
PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he (the dust) returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts (soul) perish. (NASB) [/color]


His spirit departs....where to...the Father from whence it came. He returns to the earth...He who?...the body.  His thoughts (soul mind will emotions) perish...His thoughts...but what about those thoughts that are of God.  Thoughts which will remain for the day of rewards where our reward is based upon conforming our mind to His mind.  I believe soul sleep may have some merit.  But as I said earlier I'm not sure.  The fact that the soul that sins it shall die is scriptural.  Wonder why it didn't say he will die?  The grave is a judgment of God for both the 'bodyof sin' and the still 'rebellious soul' (those parts not yet yielded in this life).  

Quote
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)

About the Trinity thing, its completely false.
 

I'm not as sure as you are.  That's why I keep asking the questions I do.  And awaiting answers I never get.

Is a man...a spirit, soul and body like 1Thes 5:23 says or not?  Is that not sort of a triune being?  If not, please explain.


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2006, 01:00:27 AM »

sparkyman481
Quote
Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.


Not intruding at all on my part.  I have a question for you based on the above.  We've, in part, been discussing man being made in the image of God and the trinity doctrine.  Based upon your above post you seem to be saying that man isn't triparte but biparte (combination of spirit and body).  So if that's the case are you saying God and man isn't a trinity but a duality.    

Quote
Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.


But in the above quote you now say ONE life.  I agree there is only one life, but is a person, and Christ, just a spirit?  How do the following verses fit your position?

LUK 24:39   See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."  

HEB 2:17  Wherefore in all things/Pas it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren


3956 pas: all, any, every, the whole

Nightmare

Quote
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).


I feel like Joshua when he didn't know whose side the angel of the Lord was on.  The angel just said nay.  I could take your posted verse as another one supporting my position...but I don't know if that's what you intended.  :?
I was really hoping for more from you concerning some of my questions earlier.  I don't mean that as a cut.  I know the posts are too long and other interests compete here for your imput.  Thanks anyway.

Maybe this thread is reaching a frazzle and coming to an end.  8)
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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2006, 03:37:17 AM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
.


So let me get this straight, You believe man is not the LIVING SOUL, but rather man is seperate from the living soul?

Also, you believe that simply because there is a BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT that God MUST BE 3 Parts also?

From what im reading from you, it seems to contradict completely the word of God.

That God breathed Life into man and HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL. The proces of breathing LIFE into Him MAKES HIM THAT SOUL, you believe He is not? There is no 3 step process to Creation. Read your scripture and pray that the Lord upon up your eyes. It's right there friend :)

So you think that WHen it says MAN is laid into the grave, you believe that HIs soul doesn't also lay there? You believe his soul is somewhere else? In heaven?

The spirit departs, but the SPirit is that BREATH OF LIFE, its not something that when it Goes to God the father you are somehow im heaven with Him. OUR THOUGHTS PERISH TILL THE DAY OF THE RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. If we went to heaven because Our spirits return to God, then there would be no point in resurrecting us because we would already be with the Father in Heaven with our spirits. However that is not the case.


Quote
Read your Job quote carefully.  What is laid in the grave? A man (singular, not mankind).  So does that mean a man isn't also a spirit?  Does not the man of dust return to dust, and does not the spirit of man return to God?  
So what sleeps in Sheol/Hades/grave until the day of judgment, is it the soul?  Seventh Day Adventists teach something about soul sleep.  I honestly don't know for sure.  


Man is three parts, yes that is true. Soul, spirit and Body.

However when a man is laid into his grave, His THOUGHTS PERISH. His LIVING SOUL = MAN IS DEAD. His soul is dead! It is asleep as the bible refers death too. The spirit (Breath of life) Is gone back toward the Father whence it came.


You quoted something interesting.

"The SOUL that sins IT SHALL DIE." Do you not see how this relates to MAN BEING A LIVING SOUL? MAN SINS, MAN DIES. SOUL AND MAN ARE INTERTWINED. MAN IS THE LIVING SOUL. This only further proves that the SOUL is NOT IMMORTAL, but rather the very part of MAN. THE LIVING SOUL WAS ADAM. ADAM IS THE LIVING SOUL. ADAM IS MAN= LIVING SOUL.

Soul is alseep in the grave, spirit (Breath of life) returns to God.  You die, you loose the breath of life, thats obviouse. So your SPIRIT returns TO GOD WHENCE IT CAME.

How is this not simple for you to grasp? If you believe otherwise then argue with Gods word.

If im wrong in what i believe you are trying to say i apoligize im trying to figure out where we disagree and i don't know what it is.

P.S. The trinity is a completely false doctrine, you need to xplain why you find it in anyway valid what so ever. I don't think ive seen you make a valid case/show/explain why you believe the Trinity to have any truth whatsoever. Its contrary to the Word of God.

P.P.S. Lightseeker, from reading your responce to Nightmares quote i think you are perhaps being... hm... not to be mean or anything but it seems to me that you just want to be right really bad you are ignoring the scripture.

Nitemare quoted a perfect scripture that shows at DEATH, There is NOTHING. We SLEEP like the bible calls it. Man is the LIVING SOUL because of GODS SPIRIT. THE BREATH OF LIFE. The soul(man=LIVING SOUL) that SINS DIES. I am unable to see where your confusion lies. Please rephrase what you are having trouble understanding so that i can UNDERSTAND.
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nightmare sasuke

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2006, 04:20:12 AM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
sparkyman481
Quote
Hello Lightseeker,
I am getting into this conversation late. Hope I am not intruding.This is how I see what you asked about.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without the breath of life the soul cannot live. I believe the combination of body and God's Spirit is what combines to make a living soul.


Not intruding at all on my part.  I have a question for you based on the above.  We've, in part, been discussing man being made in the image of God and the trinity doctrine.  Based upon your above post you seem to be saying that man isn't triparte but biparte (combination of spirit and body).  So if that's the case are you saying God and man isn't a trinity but a duality.    

Quote
Christ is the man and the Spirit that is one. Only through Christ do we attain life. He is our Creator only he can give us the Spirit that is needed for life. There is only ONE life not three.


But in the above quote you now say ONE life.  I agree there is only one life, but is a person, and Christ, just a spirit?  How do the following verses fit your position?

LUK 24:39   See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."  

HEB 2:17  Wherefore in all things/Pas it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren


3956 pas: all, any, every, the whole

Nightmare

Quote
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10, KJV).


I feel like Joshua when he didn't know whose side the angel of the Lord was on.  The angel just said nay.  I could take your posted verse as another one supporting my position...but I don't know if that's what you intended.  :?
I was really hoping for more from you concerning some of my questions earlier.  I don't mean that as a cut.  I know the posts are too long and other interests compete here for your imput.  Thanks anyway.

Maybe this thread is reaching a frazzle and coming to an end.  8)


I've been very busy with homework this week. I have not had time to make a full response to your posts. Please excuse me.

Hopefully... hopefully... I will be able to present a fuller analysis of your posts this weekend if I find time. If not, then definitely in 30 days ;D
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Laren

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2006, 10:41:33 AM »

I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time.  But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.  

Joh 17:3  and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;  

Can we not have this life now???  I believe we can.  So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.  

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.    

Joh 11:26  and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
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ertsky

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2006, 12:27:08 PM »

Laren

Quote
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.


what we have now is the earnest of the spirit

2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

until the redemption of the purchased posession

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

you quote

Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

but that is a terrible translation

have a look at the same verse in Youngs

Joh 11:26  and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;

Ray wrote some great stuff on this verse, heres an exerpt

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:

#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."

#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."

#165 = aion, "age."

read it all in

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

f
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Laren

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2006, 12:59:03 PM »

Quote from: ertsky
Laren

Quote
Can we not have this life now??? I believe we can. So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.


what we have now is the earnest of the spirit

2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

until the redemption of the purchased posession

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

you quote

Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

but that is a terrible translation

have a look at the same verse in Youngs

Joh 11:26  and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;

Ray wrote some great stuff on this verse, heres an exerpt

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:

#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."

#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."

#165 = aion, "age."

read it all in

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

f


We can talk more by PM if u want, as I know this belief is not of Ray's.  I just thank God I know him now, and can know him more and more.  

Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2006, 01:33:37 PM »

Man this is getting Odd, im having a hard time following.

What are we debating here?

Lightseeker? Please clarify.

Laren, please explain what your post was about, do you not believe that when we die we sleep till the day of ressuretion of the dead? Do you believe we automaticaly go to heaven? If so you are in complete contrary to hundreds of scripture both old and new. God does not change.

Again sorry if i have misunderstood any of you.
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2006, 02:15:32 PM »

lilitalienboi16

Quote
Man this is getting Odd, im having a hard time following.


I agree. I know my posts have been way too long and time consuming for me to even write.  I was ready to let this go last night and now today there's just too much on the plate.  Some of it is covered ground.  I have enjoyed the discussion overall and am thankful for the time.

I believe some of your questions from the 12:37 am post were answered on my May 1, 11:20.


Laren
 
Quote
I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time.  


I too, am concerned about getting 'bumped'.  I don't know if I'm crossing the line and don't want to find out.  Are there warnings from the moderators before such discipline?

Nightmare
 
Study hard and don't worry about this.  I'm going to a conference this weekend and leave tomorrow at noon.  We'll hopefully Ebate some other topics in search for the truth.   :wink:
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Origen II

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2006, 03:07:50 PM »

I'd like a more detailed answer to that Thessalonians verse...
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hillsbororiver

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2006, 03:45:41 PM »

I have read through the thread and did not see this verse quoted, maybe I missed it, if I did please forgive me.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.

H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Body + breath of life (spirit) = soul



 Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit7307 shall return unto God who gave it.

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Once the spirit (breath of life) is gone from the body it ceases to be a soul.

Flour + water = dough

The 2 componants make one product, take either of the former away and you cannot have the latter.
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Origen II

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2006, 03:55:22 PM »

1Thes 5:23
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hillsbororiver

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2006, 04:35:06 PM »

Looks like a bad translation, I think Ray addresses this verse in one of the papers, I will check. In the mean time let's break it down a bit into the original Greek.

1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit4151 and soul5590 and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
G4151

πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
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SOTW

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Re: God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2006, 07:17:47 PM »

Quote from: Joey Porter
I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense).  This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.

However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action.  Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer?  Thanks.


Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.

There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.

I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.
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nightmare sasuke

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2006, 07:22:44 PM »

Quote from: Laren
I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time.  But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.  

Joh 17:3  and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;  

Can we not have this life now???  I believe we can.  So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.  

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.    

Joh 11:26  and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.

The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).

Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...

"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).

Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).

Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead� (Merriam-Webster).

The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.

You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.

“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;â€? (Joh 11:26, KJV).

Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.

Lets look at the Strong’s definations.

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho  hē  to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…

So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]�

Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).

The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?� (Joh 11:26, KJV).

If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.

Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.
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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2006, 07:48:33 PM »

Great post nitemare.

There should be no doubt in anyones mind here the state of the dead, and when they are given life again. Plenty of scripture to prove the Ressurection of the DEAD has a purpose. (We are not flooting around in heaven in eternal bliss before then.)
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orion77

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2006, 08:13:29 PM »

I believe one of the greatest aspects of our belief is in the resurrection.  The fact that Jesus died and rose the third day is the most spectacular event that has ever occured in the history of all history.  If we were to die and then either go to heaven or hell, what would be the purpose of the resurrection?  What would be the reason for our faith?  

God has said, the wages of sin is death and the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die.  This is why Jesus came to save us from death eternal to give us life, even though we must still die, it no longer is a death forever.  The resurrection of Jesus is what proves that death is conquered and the faith in this is paramount to ones belief.  Jesus came to save us from the wages we earned, which is death, to give us life, life more abundant.  Death and life is happening around us everyday of our lives, in the physical and the spiritual.  The day will come when there will no longer be death, but only life, when God will be all in all.  This is pure love, in which there is no fear.

The goal in all our lives is to fight the good fight, love God with all our hearts, love our neighbors as ourselves, and to forgive our enemies.  This is easier said than done, but we must follow Him.  There is no other way.  We all die daily, warring against the flesh and the day will come we all will go the way of the earth, but this is not the end.  This is where true faith comes, in believing things that cant be seen.  

It is like, when we were young and tried to do something new, we have never done before.  We were scared and asked our parents for guidance, and just when they said it will be okay, albeit still apprehensive, we did it.  Then, we look around and see that it was nothing at all to be afraid of.  God is not in the business of creating robots.  That would not build true character, faith and love.  It takes trust and obedience.

God bless,

Gary
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