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Author Topic: God is creating (present) man in His image?  (Read 13340 times)

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Laren

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2006, 08:52:57 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
[

Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).




Actually,I believe the seperating the sheep from the goats is going on right now, in my opinion.  That's why judgment begins at the house of God.  

Here is something Mike V wrote to me once:

I don't mean to over simplify this subject, but when you get a handle on the Is, Was And Will Be, character of the Word Of God, which is Christ, you will realize that the separation of the sheep from the goats has actually been going on in type since Cain and Able, and  the separating of the sheep and the goats has been going on in spiritual reality since Christ and the separating of the elect from the called generation by generation. The "separating of the sheep and the goats," is a statement about  the "day of judgment," which is now on the house of God:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that [the day of] judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us [the sheep], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [the goats]
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous [sheep] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner [goats] appear?

The day of judgment "first begins at us." The "end of those who obey not the gospel of God," is a reference to the lake of fire reserved for the "goats."

Mat 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [the goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The 'goats,' are the angels (the messengers-ministers) of Satan the Devil.

2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There will be vast multitudes of goats on God's left hand and a very small flock of sheep on God's right hand. But what is not realized by the "historical orthodox Christian church," which will comprise that vast multitude of goats, is that since the Word of God Is, Was And Will Be, True. They cannot conceive of "that day," being "judgment must begin at the house of God," right now.

It is being judged now, while yet in this flesh, that qualifies one to be in the first resurrection as an "overcomer." It is only the "overcomers," who are given positions of ruler ship over "cities," in the kingdom of God. It is only the "overcomers" who will "judge angels."

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

....

Mike
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2006, 08:53:51 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
I have read through the thread and did not see this verse quoted, maybe I missed it, if I did please forgive me.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.


 Actually it was mentioned by Nightmare and I responded on pg 3 May 1  11:20am

1TH 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  

Quote
Looks like a bad translation,It would appear that the prejudice of the translaters (English) may be filtered in.
[/color]

The problem with Strongs in trying to figure out some of these terms (spirit, soul) is that they gave definitions based upon their understanding which weren't the best IMO.

The word spirit is pneuma in the greek.  We derive words like pneumonia, pneumatic and other words dealing with air from it.

But the word soul is psuche in the Greek.  From that word we derive words like psychotic, psychology, phychiatric and words dealing with the mind from it.

Strongs says pneuma can be defined 'the rational soul', 'mind', mental disposition'.

Strong's then says that psuche is the 'immortal rational soul', 'breath'.

This poor separation of definitons is very confusing when one reads their bible IMO.  There is a world of difference between a 'mind, will, intellect' type of word when compared to a literal 'spirit' which gives life type of word.  That's why I look at these definitions and say the:

The spirit is the animating life force.  The life principle that comes from God which causes this flesh bucket to work.
The soul is the motivating life force or the part of us which thinks.

The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh.  Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action.  If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave.  But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.

GAL 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
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Laren

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2006, 08:54:52 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: Laren
I won't get involved here too much, as this is a similar thread to what got be kicked off the last time.  But it seems to me, there should be a disntinction made between those who believe and are new creations in Christ versus those who die physically unregenerated.  

Joh 17:3  and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;  

Can we not have this life now???  I believe we can.  So if we can, why wouuld God give us life age during now, and then remove it from us at physical death.  

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  New, not the old creation described in Genesis 2.    

Joh 11:26  and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Sorry... But your misunderstanding is the result of a poor translation and a basic misconception.

The followers of Christ, indeed, will receive eonian life (the 1000 year reign) but not until AFTER the resurrection. I will show you.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..." (Mat 25:31, KJV).

Did you read the first sentence? Good. So lets understand something... this happens when the Son of man comes in his glory with the holy angels, which we all know is future. I'm sure you'll agree with me there, correct? Read on...

"...[yada yada yada] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you [the sinners and unbelievers], Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]" (Mat 25:45, KJV).

Okay. Do we have this established, now? The sinners and unbelievers "go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" when "When [and only when] the Son of man shall come in his glory..." Understand?

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5, KJV).

Resurrection – “the state of one risen from the dead? (Merriam-Webster).

The resurrection will give life to the dead, not to those that are hopping around in heaven alive. Resurrection=give life to the dead. Resurrection does not=give life to the living.

You quoted Joh 11:26. I’m honestly surprised you haven’t discovered what this verse really means, yet.

“καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;? (Joh 11:26, KJV).

Can you read that whole verse? No? Good… you’re not better than me. We’re off to a good start. However, I do know eis ton aiona means into the duration/age/eon.

Lets look at the Strong’s definations.

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho  hē  to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age…

So… “to or into [G1519] … the [G3588] … age [G165]?

Rotherham translates it thus, “And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?? (Joh 11:26, KJV).

The CLV translates it, “And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?? (Joh 11:26, KJV).

If you want, download an interlinear (perhaps, scripture4all—run a google search to find it) and check for yourself.

Hope I helped clear that misunderstanding up.


Also Nightmare, will u comment please on this verse.  Is this still off in the future yet too???

Joh 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;
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Joey Porter

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Re: God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2006, 10:55:26 PM »

Quote from: SOTW
Quote from: Joey Porter
I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense).  This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.

However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action.  Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer?  Thanks.


Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.

There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.

I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.


I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered.  However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man.  So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know.  I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing.  How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"
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hillsbororiver

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2006, 11:14:05 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker

The unrenewed soul is always in tension between our spirit from God and the lusts of the flesh.  Which ever one our soul lines up with determines our action.  If our soul lines up with the spirit we lead our bodies about as a slave.  But if our soul lines up with our flesh, we quench our spirit and commit sin.

 

GAL 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.

The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.

H5315

#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 Phi 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.
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orion77

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2006, 11:19:30 PM »

This can be a very deep subject, of which there are many different opinions.  But, I think it comes down to when Jesus died.  Did He actually die or not?  This is the question that will settle the debate.  And if Jesus did not actually die, how could His life pay for our sins.  For the wages of sin is death.  But, He took our place, instead of, bore the sins of all, and the penalty was paid in full by Him.  

But, if He did not die, and went somewhere for three days, how could He be resurrected, when He never died?  And if He never died, then our sins are still accountable to us.  So, even Jesus died, so shall we, but He has paid the penalty for our sins.  We shall not die forever, but live.  We must remember, that all of humanity has not risen, only one, our Lord and now He is our mediator.

We shall still die, but not forever, this is life age during.  This is something that most of christianity can never understand.  The penalty of sin is death.  Jesus paid that penalty for us, we shall still die, but the hope of our belief is in the resurrection.  Without it our hope would be in vain.

This whole life we have is like a seed.  A seed must be dead, before you plant it to grow fruit.  Death is a vital part of life, take death out of the equation, then where is life?


John 17, the whole chapter, must be read in its entirety.  These are some of the most beautiful words our Lord ever spoke.  

God bless,

Gary
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hillsbororiver

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Re: God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2006, 11:28:47 PM »

Quote from: Joey Porter
Quote from: SOTW
Quote from: Joey Porter
I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense).  This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.

However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action.  Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer?  Thanks.


Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.

There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.

I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.


I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered.  However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man.  So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know.  I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing.  How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"


Joey, I posted this way earlier in this thread but there was no comment from anyone on the root of the words creation/creature, (there was a livelier debate taking place at the time). This root does not denote a finished product. Look it up.

 
creature2937

creation2937

G2937
κτίσις

ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

formation
Function: noun
Pronunciation: fo r-'mA-sh&n
1 : an act of giving form or shape to something or of taking form : DEVELOPMENT
2 : something that is formed <new word formations>
3 : the manner in which a thing is formed : STRUCTURE <the peculiar formation of the heart>
4 : the largest unit in an ecological community comprising two or more associations and their precursors <grassland formation>
5 a : any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock represented as a unit b : any sedimentary bed or consecutive series of beds sufficiently homogeneous or distinctive to be a unit
6 : an arrangement of a body or group of persons or things in some prescribed manner or for a particular purpose
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Joey Porter

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Re: God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2006, 11:37:30 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Quote from: Joey Porter
Quote from: SOTW
Quote from: Joey Porter
I heard Ray say that the true translation of Genesis 1:27 is that God is creating man in His image - as opposed to created (past tense).  This makes sense in that Adam couldn't have sinned if he were perfect.

However, I haven't heard or seen anywhere else that the Hebrew does state that it is a present tense action.  Has anyone looked into this or does anyone have anything to offer?  Thanks.


Yes. Though on his forum, the only thing I can tell you to do is ask Ray Himself.

There is no reason to bring it to a forum in which many different views will conflict with each other and cause some to be banned for freely saying something they did not know was prohibitted and also prevent others from being drawn into vain arguments.

I also say and believe that God is creating (present) man in His image and there is pages of pages of Scripture to support it, though looking at the conversation here, it would be best that it is done one on one with Ray or Mike. It doesn't matter the TRINITY debate, that is a strawman side argument which derails any true progress into understanding we are presently being created in His Image, and the reason exists despite the differences in the dicotomy of the soul.


I would love to be able to ask L. Ray and Mike questions via e-mail, with the hopes of having them answered.  However, I have emailed Ray once and Mike twice with various inquiries and have never received a response from either man.  So, because I really want to know the answers to these things, I have no other choice but to post topics on this board in the hopes that some one here may know.  I realize this thread got derailed into a trinity debate, but that was not by my doing.  How was I to know that there would be "many different views that will conflict with each other?"


Joey, I posted this way earlier in this thread but there was no comment from anyone on the root of the words creation/creature, (there was a livelier debate taking place at the time). This root does not denote a finished product. Look it up.

 
creature2937

creation2937

G2937
κτίσις

ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

formation
Function: noun
Pronunciation: fo r-'mA-sh&n
1 : an act of giving form or shape to something or of taking form : DEVELOPMENT
2 : something that is formed <new word formations>
3 : the manner in which a thing is formed : STRUCTURE <the peculiar formation of the heart>
4 : the largest unit in an ecological community comprising two or more associations and their precursors <grassland formation>
5 a : any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock represented as a unit b : any sedimentary bed or consecutive series of beds sufficiently homogeneous or distinctive to be a unit
6 : an arrangement of a body or group of persons or things in some prescribed manner or for a particular purpose


Thanks for that.  I'll look into that further.
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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2006, 11:46:37 PM »

I honostly don't think Lightseeker your assumptions line up with scripture.

Ive seen you make some, however i still don't know what this debate is about.


Are we arguing The trinity(False doctrine)? Or perhaps wether in Death we live, or die? (Meaning we go up to heaven with God in our spirit, or do we sleep in the grave?)

To me the answer to that is qiuet obviouse, what does scripture say?

"LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH" to quote King David ;)

And Gensis plainly tells us that because God gave us THE BREATH OF LIFE (Spirit) MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. So Man is the LIVING SOUL. M

At death, the SPIRIT DEPARTS, It returns to God, and that VERY DAY OUR THOUGHTS PERISH. The living Soul is NO MORE.

How is this not comprehendable? I guess those that are blind are really blind, no matter how much you want them to see, and no matter how much they want to see, THE BLIND CANNOT SEE. I learned that not to long ago, but from reading Rays article and it seems almost elimentary but its very true! You would think i would have understood that, but i didn't hehe. Now i do though! :D Praise be God!

Alright im done rambling i don't know what we are debating, but i decided to flap my lips, errr move my fingers on a keyboard :D
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2006, 01:35:44 AM »

lilitalienboi16

Quote
To me the answer to that is qiuet obviouse, what does scripture say?

"LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH" to quote King David


Do you have an address for this verse?  I looked in 6 translations before giving up.  A little help please.
 
Quote
Are we arguing The trinity(False doctrine)?


I'm trying to understand what it means to be made in the image of God in Genesis.

 
Quote
Or perhaps wether in Death we live, or die? (Meaning we go up to heaven with God in our spirit, or do we sleep in the grave?)


Yes, resurrection life (aonios) in this age, for our mortal soul, will only come from dying to self.  At death our spirit goes to God
PHI 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  23  I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ,

Quote
And Gensis plainly tells us that because God gave us THE BREATH OF LIFE (Spirit) MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. So Man is the LIVING SOUL. M


A traditional interpretation but it doesn't work scripturally for me. I've explained my position earlier with no rebuttal which convinced me differently.   :cry:

Quote
At death, the SPIRIT DEPARTS, It returns to God, and that VERY DAY OUR THOUGHTS PERISH. The living Soul is NO MORE.


At death the spirit departs and the body dies and decays in sheol along with all the soul (mind, will, emotions) which were never renewed unto the mind of Christ.  But that part of the soul which became 'alive' unto Christ will remain unto the day of the bema judgment seat of Christ.  There all the works which were 'of the Sspirit led mind of Christ' will receive a reward.  The renewed soul sleeps but the unrenewed soul perishes.  The soul isn't an all or nothing salvation, it is from one degree to another, and merely measures your spiritual growth.  And the glorified body will represent that same degree of spiritual maturity.

That's what I'm thinking anyway.  But that's also why I'm always open to hear other opinions   :?
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lilitalienboi16

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2006, 02:27:45 AM »

First of all, The NEW TESTEMENT. REfers to DEATH as SLEEP. Even Jesus Himself said DEATH WAS SLEEP.

How do you believe that even though "GOD NEVER CHANGES." "JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW" that when we die our soul is still alive? IT IS DEAD. Let me show you with scripture.

David compares death to sleep in Psalm 13

PSALM 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (NKJV)

PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence; (NASB)

The new testement re-assures us that all those who died, are dieng and will DIE, ARE DEAD to the day. None have gone to heaven.

ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)

David new when He dies He would sleep, and the new testement re-affirms that belief that HE IS STILL DEAD TO THAT DAY!

The New Testament speaks of death as sleep many times also:

JOHN 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead." (NKJV)

These are the words of JESUS HIMSELF YOUR GOD.

ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (NKJV)

Do you honostly think Steph got tired and took a nap while being stoned to death? Obviously not He was praying to God to recieve -- NOTICE CAREFULLY -- HIS SPIRIT. NOT HIS SOUL. MAN IS THE LIVING SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE DIED. HE IS ASLEEP TO THIS DAY!

I CORINTHIANS 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. (NKJV)

Again there is that reference to sleep as death.

I CORINTHIANS 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (NKJV)

II PETER 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (NKJV)

Again death as sleep.

DANIEL 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (NKJV)

The angel concerning Daniel told Him what would Happen. He would REST UNTIL THE END OF DAYS (Ressurection of the dead) THE ANGEL OF GOD said this. You believe scripture lightseeker?

JOHN 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (RSV

EPHESIANS 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." (NKJV)

More scripture showing everyone is in the tomb (Shoel/Grave/Hades) till the day of the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. NOT THE LIVING. THE DEAD.

I believe Paul is talking to you hear lightseeker.

I CORINTHIANS 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (NKJV)

I CORINTHIANS 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen .14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up -- if in fact the dead do not rise .(NKJV)

I CORINTHIANS 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! (NKJV)

I CORINTHIANS 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. (NKJV)

I CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)

I CORINTHIANS 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (NKJV)

Should i go on, do you need more scriptural proof that WHEN YOUD IE YOU SLEEP? Fine let me do it to nail it through your head, God willing you are not blind to the truth.

I THESSALONIANS 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. (NASB)

I THESSALONIANS 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. (NIV)

I THESSALONIANS 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)

If you think anyone goes to Heaven right after they die, you are going completely against scripture. Not only does the Oldtestement affirm this belief, but so does the New Testement. Jesus Himself Told us LAZURUS SLEEPS. PLAINLY HE IS DEAD! Now, Jesus AFTER HIS DEATH, After BEING RESSURECTED, JESUS HAD STILL NOT YET ASCENDED TO HEAVEN!!!!

JOHN 20:15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " (NKJV)

Must i go on? Lightseeker if you still do not understand this concept of Death is like SLeep, then i cannot say anymore. Your argument is against scripture, and not me. Your argument is with the Word of GOd.

God bless,

May He open your eyes to this truth.

Edit: For spelling :)
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Joey Porter

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2006, 08:31:21 PM »

What is it that you two have been debating all these days?  I'm not even sure Lightseeker is arguing on behalf of an "immortal soul" doctrine.  Or am I wrong?   :?
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Lightseeker

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God is creating (present) man in His image?
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2006, 03:03:40 AM »

I missed my conference...wrong weekend.  I also edited some of your quote Ray to save space not change your thoughts.

Hillsbororiver

Quote
Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.

The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.

I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;

#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite (emotions?) , beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust (of the eyes = soul?) , man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.


I understand your difficulty with my perspective:

Quote
Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?

Let me try to show some which indicate there's something more than I was taught in the church.

1PE 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.  

If our souls were saved when we said "Yes" to Jesus then why is Peter talking about a future salvation of the soul here to "Christians".  Weren't  they (if a soul is man) or their souls (my view) already saved?  I don't believe so.

1PE 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  

Here he's talking about 'us' purifying our soul by obeying the truth which comes from/through the Spirit.  Where does the decision to obey come from?  The implication here is, from the soul (mind, will, intellect) I think.  The spirit wants always wants to, the flesh never wants to.  We purify (work out the salvation of) our soul by deciding to obey...don't we?  That's been my experience anyhow.

JAM 1:21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.  

How is our soul saved?  Here James is writing to "Christians" telling them how.  It is once again by walking in obedience to the word which comes from the leading to the Sspirit IMO.  And what is the engrafting process talked about here?  I think the following verse explains it.  For me at least.


ROM 12:1,2  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service :2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.    


Where does the decision to crucify the flesh come from?  According to the above scripture it's the mind (soul/psuche mind, will, emotions).

The spirit will always try to point us to the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil.  The flesh will always do the opposite.  It's the mind will emotions of the soul which decide who to listen to or be led by.  That's what these verses seem to indicate to me.  My soul (mind will emotions psyche) must decide to obey the lust of the spirit or the lust of the flesh which Galatians talks about.

The heart in Heb and Gr both speak of thoughts, feelings, mind, intellect.  But I place the heart in the realm of the subconscious soul/mind versus the conscious soul/mind.  That treasure which is truely deposited in the depths of our mind is programed into the DNA of the physical body.  It is no longer short term memory memes...but affects our action when we don't have a chance to think.  Like hitting your finger with the hammer while next to your "Christian" brother.  What comes out of your mouth is that which is programmed deep.

I hope this helps shed light on why I question the traditional definiton, even if it's not how you see it.  I believe I'm presenting scripture which indicates there's more to consider.

Good night all,  :-k
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