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[hillsbororiver]

There has been alot of stuff rolling through my mind lately, in discussions about the unity of the messages contained within The Parables, the following verse was presented in regard to how it relates to the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam, our carnal nature and Christ within.

Does anyone see where I am going with this? Remember scripture is more often than not many layered with types and shadows throughout.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Any and all comments will be appreciated and respected.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

[hillsbororiver]

No takers yet I see,    take a look at the key words (in bold).

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[josh]

That's really interesting Joe... I'm currently taking a course entitled "The Formation of the Christian Tradition".

It's interesting how so many people through the ages have attempted to explain the union between the divine and the human within the Savior, Jesus Christ.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that we haven't studied an answer that is even nearly adequate in explaining this miraculous union.

I believe this verse you have pointed out has illuminated some things within my own thought process... Thanks again for sharing the things you find within the scriptures, Joe... they are always a constant help to me in my own journey.

God's Peace.
Josh

[Gregor]

The difference between the clay used to make the vessel of honour and the clay used to make the vessel of dishonour is none. The difference is only found in the process of firing the clay properly, which gives it the lasting strength and durability. If I am to be used as a vessel of honour, I too need to be subject to God's refining fire. It doesn't mean that I'm any better or different than someone else, but only proves it is God who decides who goes through the fire and when. Without the "kiln" process, no one could be a vessel of honour.

Is that sort of where you're going with this Joe?

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Josh and Gregor,

Thank you for the responses and kind words.

Gregor, I don't want to get too cryptic here but you are getting close as to the "Fire" and it's effect on one part and a totally different effect on the other. We can get back to that a little later.

The following verses are often used (among others) by proponants of the rapture theory/doctrine, but they are much deeper than those folks are aware of, back when I was considering the rapture and verses such as these I wondered why it seemed that 50% of the population were to be "taken away" when the teaching is that only a very few would be "raptured."

Luk 17:34  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
 
Luk 17:35  Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
 
Luk 17:36  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Gregor]

Perhaps you're referring to the carnal nature and the spiritual nature (Christ in us) at war in our members (the same lump or "heart")??

[hillsbororiver]

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Col 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1Pe 3:4  But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Bingo Gregor!

[Gregor]

Luk 17:34  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken (WHERE?), and the other shall be left (WHERE?).
 
Luk 17:35  Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken (WHERE?), and the other left (WHERE?).
 
Luk 17:36  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken (WHERE?), and the other left (WHERE?).

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

In context, the reference is to "as in the days of the flood". Those that were taken away were those who perished. Those that were left, were those who were saved in the ark. So does this contradict the popular rapture theory that the "good" are raptured leaving the "bad" behind? I see it the complete opposite (correct me if I'm wrong). Isn't it the first Adam that is destroyed and the second Adam (Christ in us) who remains?

[hillsbororiver]

 Isn't it the first Adam that is destroyed and the second Adam (Christ in us) who remains?

Bingo once again!

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

1Co 5:7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

In context, the reference is to "as in the days of the flood". Those that were taken away were those who perished. Those that were left, were those who were saved in the ark. So does this contradict the popular rapture theory that the "good" are raptured leaving the "bad" behind?

Sorry Gregor I missed this the first time around, no, those on the Ark were taken (above the earth) those who were left became (returned to) the dust of the earth, the new man (in Christ, Christ within) is taken to a higher realm than the old, carnal, earthly man whose flesh (sinful nature) is consumed by the same Fire that his spirit is purified in.

My point in referencing the rapture was that the two in the field actually represents one person, not as rapture proponants teach.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

1Pe 3:4  But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Ahhhh back to the Parables.......

Mat 13:44  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
 
Mat 13:45  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Mat 13:46  Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

[Gregor]

My point in referencing the rapture was that the two in the field actually represents one person, not as rapture proponants teach.

Ok, I see where you're coming from.
Back to the verses you referenced in Luke 17, they're followed by this parable:
vs. 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Any idea as to which "body" is being referred to here, and what the eagles might represent? Is Jesus refering to the heavenlies ie: where eagles gather? Thanks in advance.

[Kat]

Hi Gregor,

(CLV) Luke 17:37 And answering, they are saying to Him, "Where, Lord? Yet He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the vultures also will be assembled."

This sounds like it's talking about putting to death out carnal flesh, that is why there are vultures gathered.

1Peter 3:18  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Joe, this is a very interesting subject.

My point in referencing the rapture was that the two in the field actually represents one person, not as rapture proponants teach.

I could never figure what that was talking about, but what you have said must be right.

1Co 5:7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And these Scriptures that you brought out, they are pointing to destroying the 1st Adam and purging the old leaven, so that we become a new creature.  Doesn't it have the same meaning as this verse in Luke.

Luk 17:31  On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
Luk 17:32  Remember Lot's wife.

When Christ comes to you, you can not turn back, there is nothing of the old self that you should desire.   

Luk 17:33  Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

I think this fits the theme of what you have discovered Joe.

Abigail humbled herself before King David, admitted her husband Nabel was foolish and wicked and she took responsibility for his errors and asked David for pardon and absolution. She received the mercy and grace of peace from King David and when she told Nabel this is what had happened his "heart died within him" 1 Samuel 25:37. Ten days later he was dead and Abigale became the wife of King David.

Our carnal hearts have to die within us and Christ's Life has to rise within.

Rev 2 : 28 And I will give him the Morning Star.

Rev 22 : 16 I Jesus have sent My messenger to you to witness and to give you assurance of these things for the churches, I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the radiant and brilliant Morning Star.

Isa 11 : 10 And it shall be in that day that the Root of Jesse shall stand as a signal for the peoples; of Him shall the nations inquire and seek knowledge and His dwelling shall be glory, His rest glorious!

Just having listened to Ray's teaching on the Sabbath REST, brings to mind that the circumcised are those who know God is Sovereign and for me it is this knowledge that rises up to bring rest to the soul and death to carnal works.

Thanks for a beautiful thread Joe.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Gregor,

Kat gave you the answer, this verse (Luke 17:37) you quoted is translated to vultures or buzzards in most translations not eagles. The old man dies and is consumed as the new man begins true life.

Hello Kat, your synopsis and additional scripture fits right in here, it underlines that once this process begins there is no turning back, beautiful!

Hey Arcturus, I really like what you presented from 1 Samuel in regard to Abigail and David, yes I see the correlation there. By the way at the Conference during some early morning and late hours in my motel room I found both books of Samuel fascinating, some things were just jumping off the page. I have plenty of notes perhaps I will start some topics for us to search out in Samuel 1 & 2.

Thank you all for your responses and contributions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

This is a portion from LOF Part 14

(The Beast Within) http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: THAT the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU [IN YOU], and YE IN HIM, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thes. 1:11-12)!!

How then does our Apostle Paul tell us this MUST be accomplished? What must happen? What must we do? Or rather what must Jesus do IN US? Here is the Scriptural answer:

"Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST [The Day of the Lord] is at hand [FOR YOU...].

Let no man deceive YOU by any means: for that day shall not come [TO YOU…] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST [BY YOU…], and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition [IN YOU…TO YOU…]; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped [IN YOU…]; so that he as God sits in the temple of God [‘which temple YE ARE’ II Cor. 6:16] showing himself that HE IS [YOU ARE / I AM] a god

Remember ye not, that when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things?

And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he [‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL, COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."

Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.

"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now lets will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;

Even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).


LET ME KNOW

Are you beginning to SEE IT? Is God giving you understanding? Do you see the grand and marvelous wisdom of it all? Drop me an email—let me know. I want to know how many out there in computerland are beginning to have ears to hear and eyes to see.

THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!

But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).

In conclusion:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].

And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],

FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).

Truly:  "We have seen the enemy and he is US."

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[skydreamers]

Sorry Gregor I missed this the first time around, no, those on the Ark were taken (above the earth) those who were left became (returned to) the dust of the earth, the new man (in Christ, Christ within) is taken to a higher realm than the old, carnal, earthly man whose flesh (sinful nature) is consumed by the same Fire that his spirit is purified in.

My point in referencing the rapture was that the two in the field actually represents one person, not as rapture proponants teach.

Peace,

Joe

Hi Joe, yes I've been seeing this for some time now.  This thread only confirms further what the Lord has been telling me.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:35

one grinding the other in refinement....

one shall be taken (to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn)...

the other left (to send forth,  forsake, lay aside, leave, , omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up)

depart from me workers of lawlessness (within)

our minds elevated to join in an intimate act to the mind of Christ and the carnal man returns to the dust from which it came

Peace,
Diana

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you for posting that additional teaching from Ray Joe. It adds emphasis for me that our thoughts are not God's thoughts and our ways are not God's ways. The mind of Christ is Christs and He imparts His Mind to us by His Spirit. Our mind dies daily or finally at the LOF under judgment that purges, purifies,perfects, heals and restors us from vanity, slavery, and corruption of our weak foolish and wicked self deception that is empowered by the illusion of free will.

Joe, I believe that your idea to present thoughts from your notes you made regarding Samuel is wonderful. I have more recently presented in the Forum questions I have had and the membership you and Kat have helped me to grasp a deeper insight and belief through the use of the tools of understanding Gods Word that Ray has taught added with Ray's teachings. The caution and council through knowing that the scriptures are not an interpretation to themselves but are discerned through witness of other scripture that is the Spirit of Christ revelations in Truth and the council of the brethren is I believe is a wise way to tread. We might believe we have nailed a truth, but through discernment of like minded brethren, second witness of the Scriptures and teachings from Ray we may have missed the mark completely or be on the right track. Either way it is profitable to know which way we are heading and thinking by using the eyes and ears of our like minded brothers and sisters.

Being teachable to the witness of the Spirit and  Mind of Christ as presented in the Word of God and Rays teachings and tools given to us by Ray to help us to understand the Word of God,  I believe we have a good team to bring strength in wise council regarding our efforts to comprehend, study and know God.

I believe it to be more mature to assist this direction without distractions of opinions and errors to deception. We have ample teachings and revelations we can all participate as we exercise what we have been called to understand here in BT in order to help one another come to a better aquiantance and knowledge of God.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[musicman]

What does this verse actually mean?

Joh 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.

The concordant renders it:
He must be growing, yet mine it is to be inferior.

[mharrell08]

Great post...I just wanted to "bump" it up to the top so the newer members can see.