First Adam/Second Adam

[Martinz]

Uh! I never quite got what the thread was about; I got left behind. But...that's OK!  That's why I'm studying my Bible - I need to catch up! What Arcturus said sounds like good and interesting evaluation, though.
Keep it up, Dudes and Dudesses!!!

[kweli]

Joe, Gregor, Kat, Arcturus, how old are you? Spiritually I mean?

Thanks for the postings. Eye openers.

Back to the LOF...the series I mean

[hillsbororiver]

Hi kweli,

I can't speak for the rest but I am but a toddler who still soils his diapers all too often. 

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

You are a toddler hey Joe! My Dear Brother, I have not been born yet!!   I am getting there though....

Peace to you Kweli....

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

After rethinking my rather off handed response to kweli's question I thought some clarifying was in order, as far as being "spiritual" goes I am only conceived in the spirit at best while in this flesh. It would have been better had I given a bit more consideration to my words.

What I actually meant was that I believe my understanding of the Word has grown from only being able to digest milk I am now able to process small amounts of meat as well. The incredible truth of the matter is that for every bit of new understanding comes more and more questions and a deeper acknowledgement of how little I really know.

Looking back I can see clearly so many errors in my beliefs and actions.

Sorry for any confusion my post might have generated.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Brett]

Hi Joe,

I read the posts of "First Adam/Second Adam", this is my first time to read this subject. Are you saying like First Adam is in man's flesh and Second Adam is still same man's flesh before he die? But not spirutal body as resurrection (second Adam)?

Am I right understand you or am I off?

Thanks Joe,

Brett

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hey Joe

If I may just add something here ahead of your response. Sorry Brett but I found this that might help.

There is a first, second and THIRD in the process by which all shall be made alive in Christ. Here is how Ray puts it.

....the King James translations is no particular help. Let's read from another version: "Yet each in his own class: [1] the Firstfruit, Christ: [2] there upon those who are Christ's in His presence; [3] thereafter the consummation" (1 Cor. 15.22, Concordant Literal New Testament). The "putting down of His enemies" in verse 25 is the process by which "all shall be made alive IN Christ."
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1431.0.html 


In another responce to a personal question I emailed to Ray, he says quote : Although it is true that Jesus has already come to us as a "Comforter," and we are not "IN CHRIST," nonetheless, it does not yet appear what we shall be like when He returns to us and for us: 1 John 3 : 1-2

In another jewel of an insight Ray shared with me in response to another question I sent him via email he wrote back quote:

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and the End.
Adam was flesh and blood--Jesus was made flesh and blood.
Adam was the son of God (Luke 3:38)--Jesus was the Son of God (Heb. 1:5)
Adam died--Jesus died.
All die in Adam (1 Cor. 15:22)--Jesus being of Adam and made flesh also DIED.

But Jesus has been resurrected to immortality--the "last Adam."

But notice carefully that Jesus is called the "LAST" Adam,
but He is called the "SECOND" man, not the "last" man,
as there will follow many more brothers and sisters (2Cor. 6 : 18, etc.)
God be with you,
Ray

My notes after this email edification came were as follows.

1 Cor 15 : 45. The first man Adam was made a living soul: the last Adam was a quickening Spirit.

The first man was (formed 1 Tim 2 : 13 For Adam was first formed...) from out of the earth, made of dust: the second Man is the Lord.

It is not the spiritual life that came first, but the physical and THEN THE SPIRITUAL.

I sincerely hope this adds and is helpful to  the insights that Brett has asked you to share with us Joe.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Heidi]

Hi Joe,

Of the same lump of clay......(wow - I have never seen it before now)

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Does the lump of clay represent mankind or each individual?

I have read the response to this posting and I am fascinated by the replies.  I hope someone can answer my question.

Love
Heidi

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi again Joe

When I opened up this thread, it opened on my response I posted on December 4th last year. By contrast I can see how much my views have changed.

Abigale appeased King David. Won his favor and then she went back to her husband and slayed his HEART by telling him what she had done. We know that David killed Bathsheba's husband.  We know that the son born to Bathsheba and David, died. We know in BT that although David was a man after God's heart, that he died asking his son to kill his enemies and to make it bloody. Hardly the thing that would please God who teaches us to LOVE our enemies and pray for them!

Looking at this again, I see I was deceived. Here is what I have found.  We know that the OT is written for our admonition. I was wrong to think Abigale did the right thing. Why. Because we are told by God in 1 John 2 : 16 For ALL that is in the world - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, is not of The Father but is of the world.

We know that Ray has identified this Scripture with Eve who was carnal and took the forbidden fruit precisely because she lusted in her flesh eyes and she esteemed having Godly knowledge above the value of being obedient and faithful to God Himself. Hence her consequences!

What I did not know was that three women in the OT written for my admonition, were not so innocent either as at first assumed. Abigale complained to David about her husband. She slandered his name! Look at this and cringe at the words she spoke to David after kneeling at his feet! : 1 Samuel 28 : 25 Let not my lord, I pray you, regard this FOOLISH AND WICKED FELLOW NABAL, (she is speaking about HER HUSBAND!)  for as his name is, so is he - Nabal, is his name, and folly is with him. But I YOUR HANDMAID....etc etc...

Guess what happened to Nabal after Abigale told him what she had done. HIS HEART DIED WITHIN HIM! vs 37 and he became as a stone. Then ten days later God smote Nabal that he died. Poor chap and not because God smote him but because through Nabal's WIFE his HEART DIED WITHIN HIM. I wonder how many men can relate to Nobal? I wonder how many women can even SEE that it is WRONG to go and kneel before another man and slander your husband in order to save your own skin, win approval or get a carnal promotion to a more appealing life style! Abigale became David's wife AND SHE ran to the opportunity without any mention of grief for her deceased husband! Shame on her!

What about Bath-Sheba. She falls pregnant. Deceives her husband who is later murdered by her lover and is that all right? Why would that be all right? Oh because her lover was higher up in rank and status. Like pride of life higher up as a King, King David no less! NO. That is the deception. Of course it was not alright. How do I know? because God sent Nathan His servant to point out David's error to him and the Lord struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David.

What about Ruth? She found favor with Boaz. She submitted to him and was blessed. She was a widow not because Boaz killed her husband or because she betrayed her husbands folly to another man. Ruth was kind and devoted and she obeyed and honoured her Mother in law and served her and had a spirit of submission. It is Ruth who's name we see in the first chapter of Mathew who describes the lineage of Jesus Christ! NOT Bath-Sheba or Abigale!

I know that the Bride of Christ will have no evil thoughts about her husband on earth or in Heaven and All Heaven and Earth shall be to His Glory with a trusting compliantly gentle and loving wife next to Him.

Peace be to you
Arcturus

Sorry. That might have been too long winded for some

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Brett, Arc & Heidi,

Acturus quoted 1Cor 15:45 and I think more verses from that Chapter address both of your questions (Brett, Heidi).

1 Corinthians 15

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Does the lump of clay represent mankind or each individual?

Hi Heidi,

The short answer is both, every person (in God's time and choosing) will experience this transformation from the natural to the spiritual, corruption to incorruption, mortal to immortal, imperfection to perfection.

Hi Joe,

Are you saying like First Adam is in man's flesh and Second Adam is still same man's flesh before he die? But not spirutal body as resurrection (second Adam)?

Am I right understand you or am I off?

Brett

Hi Brett,

Not quite, we are all Adam the earthly vessel being transformed into a spiritual creature, although we are spiritually conceived in this flesh we will not be true spiritual creatures until the resurrection.

2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnestG728 (down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Sorry. That might have been too long winded for some

Absolutely not!

Beautiful post Arcturus, thank you Sister,

[Roy Monis]

Hi! brother Joe.

"Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left." (Matt.24:40,41). This Scripture has been a headache for me for sometime, and I didn't have a clue till I read the discussion between you and Kat.

Using the flood in the OT as an example for us today it makes very good sense even to the likes of me. In each reference to, two, it is noticeable that they are of the same sex; one pair male and the other pair female. So the two are actually one person representing the carnal and spiritual in each. In Christ the carnal is left and bites the dust from whence it came whereas the spiritual is taken and rises to be with Christ.

Have I got this right? If so, thank you brother it solves a big ongoing problem for me.

God bless you.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy 

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Roy,

Here are a few verses to ponder on in regard to your question;

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

Joh 3:31  He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and  gave himself for me.

Eph 4:22  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:8  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Jam 1:8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

"Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left." (Matt.24:40,41). This Scripture has been a headache for me for sometime, and I didn't have a clue till I read the discussion between you and Kat.

Ray went over this Scripture and it's meaning in a Bible study about foundational truths.  Here are some excerpts from that study that should help you with this 

The Scripture that Joe gave will fit right in with this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html -----------

Mark 4:11  ...Unto YOU it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
 
Well wait a minute we have just learned something all over there again.  What are the parables about?  The called and the chosen, the many and the few.  Now what did He say there?  He just told us that, did you get it or did you just read over it and you missed it?  Read it again.  How many times have you read that and you missed it.  YOU are the few chosen, YOU will understand these things.  "Without" I teach in parables, the many hear Me, but THEY don't get it.  

Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;

So there is your two groups.  This is not talking about the same person being split down the middle or something.  This is talking about the called and the chosen.  
v
v
Haven't you read the one about the dragnet?  You bring in the net, right and those that are without, are those thrown out.  The good fish and see we have the good ground.  The word going to the good ground and what is the good ground?  The good people, you have the good fish, those that you take in the basket and keep.  

Now I'm not going to go through all the parables today, I have another point in mind.  But the principle fits here and that's why I want to start off with the parables.  There are about 40 parables in the New Testament.  It starts off with the lamp under the bushel/basket, then you have the wise man, the two men in the bed.  
It doesn't mean there are just these two, it's just two categories.

One builds his house upon the rock and the other one builds his house on the sand.  This is not the same man, presented by the two men.  Now it's true that we can go from one to the other, but most of the parables present them at the same time.  You can't do it at the same time, there is a transition where you repent and you are converted and you become the new person and you leave the other one behind.  The other one does not follow with equal stature from then on.  If it does you are not producing fruit and you are not going anywhere.

So there are two different groups throughout the parables.  You have the new wine and the old wine skins.  The sower, that we just went through with the sower.  You have the tares and the wheat.  The tares and the wheat are growing together, but they are not the same.  Because those that are the tares will be thrown into fire.  You can not be gathered into the barn and thrown into the fire at the same time.  People will not be in the kingdom of God and in the fire at the same time.  There comes a part where you separate these two and that happens at resurrection.  Those that enter the kingdom and those that are without and are going to be judged.  

Sometimes a parable will emphasize the Elect, sometimes it puts emphasis on the many.  But the opposite is always in view.   They talk about the bad, but that doesn't negate the fact that this is the opposite of those that are good.
v
v
The parables are all talking about the same thing.  If you understand that, you should understand that the two in the field and the two women grinding at the mill can not be one and the same person.  I mean we are getting into a kind of trinity here.  
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thanks for that excerpt Kat!

I just love what Ray observes quote : ....there is a transition where you repent and you are converted and you become the new person and you leave the other one behind.

To me this speaks VOLUMES and has SO much encouragement. It kind of identifies how we come out of our carnality via repentance which is not by our might or our power but by His Spirit!

Thanks to you Joe

Peace to you

Arc. 

[Heidi]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the reply.  Man, I am learning sooooo much from this site. I feel humbled.

Love
Heidi