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I asked an expert!
Deborah-Leigh:
Some points to ponder all quotes from Ray in blue font found at http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html :
Heb. 13:08, “Jesus Christ the same [Gk. ‘same One; same Self’] yesterday, today, and forever.”
It is paramount that God never change, therein lies the ultimate stability of eternity - GOD WILL NEVER EVER CHANGE. One doesn’t change total perfection. Creation will change, albeit God will never change.
We like to think in terms of back then and the future out there. This was back at creation and now we are headed for eternity, no. You can’t look at it that way, it doesn’t work.
If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes. The closes physical analogy you could come up with is a circle. Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future. Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle? Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends? You can’t, can you.
Now I’ll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I’m telling you it has no beginning and it has no end. It doesn’t move in a circle, it is a circle. Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity.
Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there. Eternity is like a circle, you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end. Because it has no beginning and it has no end. Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth.
Psalms 31 : 14 But I trusted in, relied on, and was confident in You, O Lord; I said, You are my God. 15 MY TIMES ARE IN YOUR HANDS.
This also reminds me of
Ecc 3: 1 To everything there is a season, and a TIME for every matter or purpose under heaven....
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
willieH:
willieH: Hi Kat! Peace be unto you! ;D
Thanks for your thoughts Kat...
--- Quote from: willieH ---TIME is a CREATED entity which had a BEGINNING (Gen 1) and shall have an END (John 6:44 & John 12:48 = LAST DAY) That JESUS denoted there shall be a LAST DAY, by necessity, ends TIME... for TIME's foundational element is DAYS...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Kat ---I do not see that time will end when Christ returns. It seems that those Scripture are talking about this church age ending. Then there will be ages to come, therefore time must go on through the ages.
--- End quote ---
Not trying to argue, rather observe logically... ;)
How do you explain the LAST DAY? For if there is a LAST DAY, which CHRIST noted TWICE... then this necessitates that NO OTHER DAYS follow... otherwise the SCRIPTURE is broken... for if other DAYS follow, then the "LAST DAY" never occured...
--- Quote from: Kat ---Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
--- End quote ---
Who is to say or name the LENGTHS of AGES Kat? An age can be as little as a moment or as much as centuries... How are we to determine that MANY AGES shall not occur between CHRIST's words [made via Paul - Eph 2:7] and the LAST DAY?
I noticed in Ray's writing below, that even he is not sure that TIME shall end or continue... which means he is not necessarily settled in this observation... However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...
One other thing I would like you to consider... and that is that ETERNITY has no Beginning or Ending, ...what place has TIME in such a scenario? For TIME is ALL ABOUT "beginnings and endings"?
--- Quote from: Kat ---I not so sure that because time had a beginning, it must also have an ending. The physical creation seems to be based on time. So if time ended, wouldn't the creation end also?
--- End quote ---
TIME DEFINITELY and SURELY had a beginning for PRIOR to the FIRST DAY, there were no "DAYS" otherwise, the FIRST DAY Could not have been named, the FIRST DAY!
The PHYSICAL Creation WILL END... for it ALL becomes a NEW CREATION... which is SPIRITUAL... when YHVH becomes ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28) YHVH is SPIRIT... and upon His PERMEATION of ALL THINGS, it is logical to conclude that ALL things become as IS HE... which is SPIRIT...
--- Quote from: Kat ---Maybe the "eon of the eons" means there will always be eons continually.
Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!
--- End quote ---
And "maybe" it does NOT mean this! ;)
--- Quote from: Kat ---Here is an email from Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2123.0.html -----
Dear Jeffrey:
I am not so sure that time ever ceases to exist. The "eons" of time cease to exist, but time itself may never cease. I have seen lately that dictionaries totally contradict their own definitions of eternal and eternity. I will write a new paper in the near future entitled "RETHINKING ETERNITY" [Does time cease at the consummation of the eons?].
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
IMO... Ray is on the cusp of BEING SURE... that our ETERNAL God IS the CONSUMATION of ALL THINGS tainted by SIN which are found in the created, REALM of TIME...
ETERNITY is NOT a "created" entity... it ALWAYS IS...
TIME, in my observation is simply a quarantined [isolated] and IMPERFECT (still being created/completed) entity in which GOD is GIVING His Children the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, ...by EXPERIENCE... Set aside from Eternity, for this work... and separated from that which is NOT tainted... and PERFECT...
When TIME and ALL within it have reached COMPLETION, ...game over! ALL which DIE in TIME are waiting REBIRTH in ETERNITY...
The Scripture says that GOD's WILL is done in HEAVEN (Eternity)... therefore NO EVIL is performed there, no SIN exists there, no DEATH exists there... In essence GOD's WILL is NOT TRANSGRESSED in ETERNITY... however...
Here in TIME... ALL these things exist , where GOD's WILL is TRANSGRESSED... (evil/transgression of God's Will/sin/death)
It is said in Hebrews 2:11 that CHRIST was made PERFECT [complete] through SUFFERINGS... His "sufferings" were realized and endured, in TIME... (as are OURS)... when the SUFFERINGS which "make us COMPLETE" are ended, then TIME is no longer necessary... and ETERNITY which is TIME-LESS shall resume for us... for we have RETURNED from WHERE (eternity/God) we emerged...
--- Quote from: Kat ---I'm looking forward to see what Ray has to say about 'Rethinking Eternity.'
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
As am I Kat... as am I... ;) I check his site DAILY, always interested in reading his latest thoughts...
Notice... he is "RETHINKING" Eternity... which says to me that GOD is revealing another view of it to Ray, which is DIFFERENT than the one he has held in the past...
When a premise is "rethought", it is brought under NEW SCRUTINY... ;)
peaCe...
In JESUS ...willieH ;D
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi WillieH
You ask about the "last day"...For me that would be the last day of that age. The last day of the decade. The last day of puberty. The last day of the teen teenager. Not meaning the last day of the life of the teen teenager but the last day of that era.
As for Christ, did you refer to Christ as not knowing? ...if so...then re consider Ray's latest teachings that Christ knows all that the Father knows and that the Father keeps nothing from the Son because unto Him is given All Things by the Father which will be returned to the Father by Christ and then God will be all in all.
If you are referring to Ray not being sure if time will or will not end, then sorry, I do not know where or how or why you have come to this conclusion. I agree that time has no correspondence with eternity as evidenced and taught by Ray and noted by the excerpts posted from his conference transcripts.
As to the "first day" proving to be the "first day" again, I look to the meaning of aionian as age not absolute as in first and last limited thinking. Who knows what came before the first day. The scriptures are silent.
Where you quote Ray as saying that he is not sure, I do not see this to mean that Ray is NOT SURE but that Ray offers the alternative to this limited frame of mind and answers with the insight that is unveiling the deeper truths that God is revealing and not error of previous thinking. Quite a difference don't you think :)
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: willieH on December 20, 2007, 01:49:07 PM ---
However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...
--- End quote ---
Hi Willie,
I am not so sure about that, what is it that separates days? Of course it is the night or perhaps in this scenario a better word may be darkness.
The last Day could very well mean that night (darkness) will never follow it, that the Light of God the Father and His Son are All in All where we are never to see darkness (night) again!
The last day may never end.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Deborah-Leigh:
A glorious response Joe. In fact there are scriptures to authenticate what you observe!
Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no more night; they have no need for lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will illuminate them and be their light, and they shall reign (aionian!) through the eternities...(could that mean through God the Father and Son plural? ...perhaps... :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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