outnumbered 20:1

[Patrick]

3 Deacons, 1 pastors daughter that has a son in Seminary, 5 Sunday School teachers, a missionary going to Africa, tithers, hell believers, family and friends in Heaven, parents teaching the children that Jesus was born on Dec 25th.
That's what I experience every Christmas when I go visit my family.
I pray to God that I don't get the holier than thou attitude, and I had a real difficult time this year. It was very stressful for me.
My sister-in-laws dad died a few months ago and at the funeral the pastor started talking about how he is fishing and hunting in Heaven, well it came up again. His widow passed out a poem about it during the unwrapping of presents. I could only get thru 2 paragraphs before I put it back in the stack (while nobody was watching).
Well, my step-dad (a Deacon) is having some issues with the new pastor and my Mom told him about me going to the B-T conferences. He started asking questions about the return of Jesus, Heaven, tithing, and somehow we got on the Hell topic. It did not matter what I said, he could not see/hear what I was saying. I mentioned that I could email him some articles from B-T's and he refused the offer. OK, that's fine with me. I know God is in control.
Well, he mentioned our conversation to my sister-in-law, so she cornered me and wanted to know why I did not think her dad was in Heaven. I offered to get my Bible from the car, but she stated I could make the Bible say anything I wanted.
The conversation ended with "I don't care what anyone says, I know my Dad is in Heaven!" Before I could stop myself, the words "well I guess the Resurrection of the dead when Christ returns is a load of crap then!"
You could see the fire and tears in her eyes.
I could not wait to "get out of Dodge"; it was very uncomfortable for me the next day. So, I just stayed away from everyone and spent the rest of my time with God in the mountains of Ruidoso, NM. before my 8 hr drive back to AZ.
I really don't want to spend another holiday around them, but my Mom is in her 70's and complains that I only see her 4 days/year, and my step dad is battling prostate cancer.
You folks are the only ones I can speak with, so thanks for reading.
   

[gmik]

Oh Patrick....what an ordeal!

I spent Eve w/ bunch of relatives--I never mention anything, nobody ever asks.
Keep it nice and shallow, lots of laughs, eating, and watching all the babies.

Then Christmas day, only had my own children and their spouses, kids,etc.  Again, just silly, light hearted...no mention of anything to do w/ Jesus or Bible stuff.

If I hear anything like "oh, that was their choice, they didn't have to do that..." I never say anything. or "he's in heaven right now" again I just don't say anything.

But hey, thats just me.  I know the Lord leads us each .

I just felt your pain, Patrick, and tho I didn't have that to deal w/ I still couldn't wait to come to the forum for some relief(refueling too).

[brandon h]

I felt your pain as well, Patrick. It's funny because when I was in Babylon I constantly prayed for my brother to start coming to church. Now God has called me out and now he goes every Sunday. It's like we are constantly on other sides of the spectrum. And there's not much to talk about in that area. But like gmik the Lord does not compel me to say anything most of the time. Thanx 4 posting

God Bless

[Patrick]

I thought about my post and the circumstances and did not sleep very well last night. This morning a verse popped in my head.
Mat 8:22  But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead.

And as I was doing some Scripture searching, I was lead to this;
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life

Joh 6:27  Work not for the meat which perisheth, but for the meat which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
Joh 6:28  They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Akira329]

I totally understand how you feel Patrick!
My dad tells me all the time to go back to church! I tell him if I did I couldn't believe the foolishness being preach out of the pool pit.
So he says just find one the you agree with. Whole point gets lost after that.
Sometimes he tells me the all churches are not perfect and that I should just do what I should do regardless ie. sing in the choir, teach sunday school, go to all the programs(whatever silliness they may be), pay my tithes and offerings........etc.
Its no getting around it. I have yet to give him a full reason because I'll know were it will lead. I haven't been home since June and that was for my brothers funeral.(boy that was hard to! With the preacher trying to avoid saying my brother is going to hell!)
Some day its going to all come out and I will be the center of attention at the dinner table!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Patrick

You said : You could see the fire and tears in her eyes.

That is so beautiful. 

Why?

Because as you described her hearing the truth,  her blazing eyes for me were reflecting the consuming fire of God and her tears were her struggle against HIM not you. 

Meeting with the consuming fire of God in this life time on this side of the resurrection is surely judgement and chastisement and it hurts! But better this now not later under wrath and White Throne Judgment! What a blessing this dear lady experienced though I doubt she would agree! Also I do not encourage anyone to go looking to repeat or duplicate such an experience. Your situation and circumstances were arranged by God and you certainly did not go looking for touble!

Your words had to have cut like a blade out of proverbial Hell to the marrow of her false beliefs. No doubt your words were spontaneous and perhaps if you were to have a second chance at this challenging exchange you might have handled it differently knowing that she is caught on the brier of seductive false teachings and popular beliefs that award acceptance in belonging to the crowd if you go along.

I know it had to be difficult for you to enter into such a trial among "family" that is held yet in bondage and blindness but I see the purpose and plan of God to have caused you to experience this and to you is the blessing of having eyes to see and ears to hear.

Peace be to you brother

Arcturus

[psalmsinger]

I try to mention that the spirit of the loved one has went home to God who gave it.  Everyone well versed in church doctrine can agree with that scripture and it is especially comforting to those who fear their loved one is being tormented in hell at that very instant per traditional teachings. Not being present in the church building equals going to hell in many peoples mind. Mentioning scripture referring to Jesus saving the whole world gets that point across too, even if they don't believe it.  John 3:16-17 is a great promise.  Been in the hot seat, done that, some family even thinks we are evil......... You are in good company here, carry on as Jesus Christ leads:)

Rest in the Lord,
Barbara

[Ray-Ray]

know what ya mean patrick, I have a brother-in-law who is a baptist preacher, even met a couple of Jehova false witnesses . Ray-Ray

[hebrewroots98]

Hello my sweet brother Patrick; it's been awhile since we have spoke, I was wondering where you had been;  MY HEART IS BREAKING FOR YOU...THAT MAKES ME CRY FOR YOU, AND IT TEARS ME UP INSIDE FOR YOU!! Bless your heart!  I have been there too, believe me!  It is such a difficult place to be!  You did what was ultimately meant to come from your mouth in the end, right?  All that I can say is to go and visit your mom and dad as often as the Spirit leads you to, and don't put yourself on a guilt trip for not doing more than you are called to do; plus, do not let them put you on a guilt trip either!  We all know that HE has HIS reasons for not opening their eyes and ears at this time;   Would it help for you to go at another time of the year instead?  (I too love those mountains in Ruidoso!  Around the Inn of the MOuntain Gods is  so beautiful too....though I wish they would have not named it 'mountain gods..') 


YOU JUST SING FOR JOY IN THE LORD YOU RIGHTEOUS SON, AND COUNT IT A BLESSING TO SUFFER FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS' SAKE!!!...AND BLESS HIS HOLY NAME!!!!! (YOU MUSTR BVE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT )

Amen Akira...you will be the center of attention at the table of the Lord!

Excellent points Arc!!

Blessings,
Susan 

[Patrick]

Thanks for responding everyone.

Gena, I've not said anything since Christmas of 05', my mother knew a little bit (sent her the B-T link), but from talking to her, she has not read much. I learned early on, keep my mouth shut unless asked; I was one that tried to take the Truth to church and was run off.
I also learned, even if you are asked, God may not remove the scales at that instant.

Brandon, I used to tell all my friends, that would listen, to get involved in church. And now I've told them to "come out of her."

"Anti", I used to speak just as your dad. I pray God gives you strength to be a positive "center of attention" when/if you are ever asked.

Deb, I wish I could have seen it as you did; I saw anger and disappointment (carnal view  )
Me look for trouble?
My dad told me one time I did not have to go looking for trouble, it followed me around.

Barb, my sister-in-law got lost on the spirit/soul/body explanation; I probably did not give a very good presentation.

Ray-Ray, I got a JW to take some of Ray's teachings; they have not been back. Maybe I'm on their "do not disturb" list.

Susan, I've not been to the Inn of the Mountain Gods in many, many years. Before we built the cabin, I stayed there a few times for ski and golf trips. I've been going to Ruidoso since 1975 and got to know a bunch about the Mescalero Apache Tribe. They own and operate the resort and Ski Apache (ski resort); the mountains are very scared to the tribe, hence the name.

[hebrewroots98]

Hi Patrick; great responses btw.  I too used to beg my family to "go to church"...now they give me hell for not "going to church"!!!!  (Ugh, payback is never fun  

My brothers are in in Roswell right now, but, just finsihed a job (working) at Mescalero.  It is a georgeous place indeed an dlots of Indian history and most of that Apache trible culture is still alive right now, as you stated. 

Patrick, I loved your typo!  'THE MOUNTAINS ARE VERY 'SCARED' TO THE TRIBE"...(of course we know that you meant SACRED )
Blessings brother!
Susan

[Patrick]

 

And I looked at that probable 2 different times.