> General Discussions
Was Christ Created?
Joey Porter:
Well, the way I look at it is:
We have no scripture that clearly and plainly states "Jesus Christ was created by God."
We have a few scriptures that show that we are not to worship any created thing or being.
We have a boatload of scriptures that show that Christ is and will continue to be in subordination to the Father.
Christ is called the Word of God. Words are spoken. Creatures and creations are formed.
We know that Christ and the Father are One, and yet, the Father is greater than Christ.
The big problem I have with the trinity is not so much that the doctrine considers Christ as eternally existing. It has to do with the fact that the doctrine claims that He is equal to the Father, which goes against Christ's own words.
Many time in the NT, we see things that David said centuries prior, actually being said by Christ, such as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" and "They hated me without reason."
Well, here is something to consider, from Proverbs chapter 8. This is metaphorically taken as "wisdom," a female, speaking. But I wonder if this might not be another case of the words of Christ again appearing in the OT.
Proverbs 8
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
I don't think we should assume that these words apply to Christ, but it's definitely some Truth worth seeking.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: JeffD ---Hello everyone. I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14. In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse. I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently. Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.
Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".
I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others). So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse? I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).
I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created. The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him. It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.
--- End quote ---
I realized this too. I checked in the Vulgate to see how Jerome (spelling?) interpreted it and he indeed rendered it with a Latin word strictly meaning "beginning." Correct me if I'm wrong.
"et angelo Laodiciae ecclesiae scribe haec dicit Amen testis fidelis et verus qui est principium creaturae Dei" (Rev 3:14, Vulgate).
It's a touchy subject, though, considering, as far as I know, we only have exactly one or two witnesses bluntly saying Christ was created.
hillsbororiver:
Perhaps rereading this might clear up some questions, it did for me;
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Joey Porter:
In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
--- End quote ---
What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).
Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."
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