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Author Topic: Was Christ Created?  (Read 7520 times)

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ertsky

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2006, 05:27:05 AM »

i found this

***no teaching links***

on Mikes site
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 06:07:31 PM by mharrell08 »
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hillsbororiver

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2006, 01:54:19 PM »

Bobby, I agree, it seems clear enough to me that Christ our Lord and Savior is subject to the Father and came after the Father spoke Him into existence.

There are many treasures in Scripture that do not jump out and hit you between the eyes, they must be carefully mined, I think Ray did a very compelling piece on this subject.

This is part of the article from Ray I referenced earlier in the thread;

(Ray's quote in brackets)



 [Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." John 16:27-28.

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ,

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" Col. 1: 14-17.

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." I Tim. 2:5.

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28.

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again,

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all"

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again,

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" I Cor. 11:3.

Where do we ever read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." Eph. 1:17.

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember that these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.]

I also found this in searching the scriptures, it may be referenced in another portion of Ray's paper but either way it is germane to this issue;

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten3439 of the Father, full of grace and truth.

I think we have become so conditioned to seeing this word "begotten" only used in reference to Jesus physical (in the flesh) birth and life that it is easy to miss the spiritual message, the spiritual truth of Him and His relationship to the Father

G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
 
Joh 5:20  For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

The Father is going to show the Son greater works? Our Lord is still learning from the Father?
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Harryfeat

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2006, 02:54:19 PM »

Quote from: Joey Porter
So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?"  I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.



It seems that Christ is/was/will be through the Father's will,  the  tool to accomplish creation and administer final judgement and rule to the end of the kingdom. Only the Father knows when that kingdom will end.

Based on all the scripture quoted throughout, it also seems obvious from scripture quoted that we are to honor Christ.  Would it be idolatrous to worship him as well? Christ is the Lord of all but he taught us through the Lord's prayer to pray to the Father.  I don't recall anywhere in scripture I've read where Christ told us to worship himself as well as the Father.

What do y'all think?
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eutychus

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2006, 03:42:16 PM »

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed



Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.



Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.



Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.


1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;


Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
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Joey Porter

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2006, 09:20:48 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: Joey Porter
In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam.  Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him).  But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God.  Nor do the scriptures.  Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being.  There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.

I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here,  http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php ,  but I myself will not make that claim.  I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created.  Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay.  (Romans 8:19-22)

In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue.  I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.


What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.

"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).

Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."


I believe Christ's relationship to God is as Eve's relationship to Adam.  Eve came out of Adam, but was not created by Adam.  

Again, if we say Christ was created, there is just no way that we can separate Him from the "all creation" spoken of in Romans chapter 8.  If He was created, He is a part of creation, correct?

This reminds me of a debate I recently had with someone about the origins of satan.  This person insisted that lucifer was created as a perfect angel and then he rebelled and fell.  I showed him the scripture about the devil being a murder from the beginning.  My counterpart said something  similar to "well, that doesn't mean he was a murderer from the time he was created, but he became a murder before God started creation."

I said "how can you say there was a creature before God started creation?!"

It doesn't make sense to say God created someone before He started creation.  Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that Christ is a created being and yet He is somehow not included in the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8.

Let us not be like the rest of the Christian world and just brush aside these little scriptural holes in our arguments, holding onto something that is not conclusively taught in the Word, lest our lampstand also be removed from its place.
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nightmare sasuke

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2006, 11:46:08 PM »

Quote from: Joey Porter
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: Joey Porter
In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam.  Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him).  But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God.  Nor do the scriptures.  Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being.  There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.

I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here,  http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php ,  but I myself will not make that claim.  I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created.  Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay.  (Romans 8:19-22)

In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue.  I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.


What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.

"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).

Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."


I believe Christ's relationship to God is as Eve's relationship to Adam.  Eve came out of Adam, but was not created by Adam.  

Again, if we say Christ was created, there is just no way that we can separate Him from the "all creation" spoken of in Romans chapter 8.  If He was created, He is a part of creation, correct?

This reminds me of a debate I recently had with someone about the origins of satan.  This person insisted that lucifer was created as a perfect angel and then he rebelled and fell.  I showed him the scripture about the devil being a murder from the beginning.  My counterpart said something  similar to "well, that doesn't mean he was a murderer from the time he was created, but he became a murder before God started creation."

I said "how can you say there was a creature before God started creation?!"

It doesn't make sense to say God created someone before He started creation.  Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that Christ is a created being and yet He is somehow not included in the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8.

Let us not be like the rest of the Christian world and just brush aside these little scriptural holes in our arguments, holding onto something that is not conclusively taught in the Word, lest our lampstand also be removed from its place.


Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
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Joey Porter

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2006, 12:02:08 AM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke

Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.


I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.

Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.

Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."


Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear.  There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
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nightmare sasuke

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 12:26:24 AM »

Quote from: Joey Porter
Quote from: nightmare sasuke

Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.


I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.

Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.

Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."


Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear.  There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.


The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.

PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.
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Joey Porter

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 01:13:38 AM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: Joey Porter
Quote from: nightmare sasuke

Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.


I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.

Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.

Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."


Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear.  There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.


The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.

PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.


God has put it in me to settle for nothing less than the truth.  
I'm going to have to seek this out more, because I thought there were some posts earlier in this thread that showed that we were not actually created by Christ, but through Him.
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JoshuaDavid

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2006, 11:25:39 AM »

Lord Christ proceeded directly from the Father and declared Him. The Word was with God and the Word was God and the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. No man has ever seen God, the Son that proceeded from the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. This is why Christ had not sin, Gods Word is Truth and no darkness is in Him at all. Just as Gods Spirit is part of Him, so is the Son (His Word). These three are One. Most of this comes from the Gospel of John, the beloved disciple of Christ. Revelations is very hard to understand if you dont accept this fact.
 So I believe that Christ was not created, but was always with God just as the Holy Spirit, they both proceeded directly from the Father. Since God is existence and has always been, the same is true with Lord Christ and the Spirit. Is not God eternal?
 Peace be unto you and may God bless you.
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hillsbororiver

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Was Christ Created?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2006, 11:41:08 AM »

JoshuaDavid,

Please read and respect the Forum Rules before making any more posts.

Thank you,

Joe

Dennis Vogel
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 83
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 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Please read this before posting.    

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