> General Discussions
Was Christ Created?
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
--- End quote ---
What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).
Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."
--- End quote ---
I believe Christ's relationship to God is as Eve's relationship to Adam. Eve came out of Adam, but was not created by Adam.
Again, if we say Christ was created, there is just no way that we can separate Him from the "all creation" spoken of in Romans chapter 8. If He was created, He is a part of creation, correct?
This reminds me of a debate I recently had with someone about the origins of satan. This person insisted that lucifer was created as a perfect angel and then he rebelled and fell. I showed him the scripture about the devil being a murder from the beginning. My counterpart said something similar to "well, that doesn't mean he was a murderer from the time he was created, but he became a murder before God started creation."
I said "how can you say there was a creature before God started creation?!"
It doesn't make sense to say God created someone before He started creation. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that Christ is a created being and yet He is somehow not included in the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8.
Let us not be like the rest of the Christian world and just brush aside these little scriptural holes in our arguments, holding onto something that is not conclusively taught in the Word, lest our lampstand also be removed from its place.
--- End quote ---
Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
--- End quote ---
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
--- End quote ---
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
--- End quote ---
The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.
PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
--- End quote ---
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
--- End quote ---
The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.
PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.
--- End quote ---
God has put it in me to settle for nothing less than the truth.
I'm going to have to seek this out more, because I thought there were some posts earlier in this thread that showed that we were not actually created by Christ, but through Him.
JoshuaDavid:
Lord Christ proceeded directly from the Father and declared Him. The Word was with God and the Word was God and the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. No man has ever seen God, the Son that proceeded from the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. This is why Christ had not sin, Gods Word is Truth and no darkness is in Him at all. Just as Gods Spirit is part of Him, so is the Son (His Word). These three are One. Most of this comes from the Gospel of John, the beloved disciple of Christ. Revelations is very hard to understand if you dont accept this fact.
So I believe that Christ was not created, but was always with God just as the Holy Spirit, they both proceeded directly from the Father. Since God is existence and has always been, the same is true with Lord Christ and the Spirit. Is not God eternal?
Peace be unto you and may God bless you.
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