Just Posted - Death: an Encouraging Word.

[moseslmpg]

Hi moseslmpg,

I see this is your first post, welcome to the Bible-Truths forum 

Jesus compared death to sleep, because as with sleep we are unconscious which means - experiencing loss of senses: unable to see, hear, or otherwise sense what is going on.

But with sleep as you say, you do dream.  But with death there is no mind function, as it says here.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,

Thanks, I appreciate the welcome.

Anyway, my problem with this is that while I can concede that when you are asleep your senses are not "working," that doesn't preclude me from dreaming that they are working. It's like the sensation is being bypassed itself and it goes directly to the consciousness that experiences the sensation. I'm sure that the brain is totally dead when you die, and for most people this means absence of consciousness, but I don't think it necessarily means that.

We are all spiritually "asleep" and "dead" in any case, but I think that more spiritually awakened individuals would stay "awake" during death. For instance, there are people who can project their consciousness while they sleep and go to different places in their house while their body is asleep. For the majority of the world, death is just like dreamless sleep because they have not developed enough to be able to stay conscious during the process IMO.

I think that if the metaphor is meant to be taken seriously, that dreaming should be included, are at least not precluded. There is evidence of reincarnation and there are instructions on how to remain conscious during death, but I imagine that these experiences would be attributed to demons (which is another story).

Here are a few email that Ray has answered concerning death sa sleep and reincarnation.
Dear Randy:

It is not a bother for me to answer your questions.

Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. God changes us into a new creature, a new creation, but this happens to us as the person we are, not a reincarnated different person.

Dear Walter:

No, there is no such thing as human "reincarnation." Reincarnation is an ancient doctrine of the pagan Egyptians. God knew us from before the foundation of the world, not because we existed back then, but because we were IN HIS PLAN. God knew every person who would ever live, and when they would be born, and how long they would live, how they would live, etc., etc., etc.  And He didn't plan for any to perish, but that all will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth (if not in this life, then in Judgment).

God be with you,
Ray

First of all, I want to say that I don't really see what point Ray is trying to make, and I don't think he really understands reincarnation, no offense meant. In the first e-mail he says that reincarnation (I assume this includes rebirth as well) is a doctrine of demons, but I have yet to see a reason why this is the case. In the second one, he uses the "argument from paganism" or from personal incredulity, and may be even setting up a straw man. I don't mean to attack Ray, but I just don't think this is as solid as some of his other findings. If you have this life and the Judgment, what's wrong with adding a few more in between? It certainly makes the task of learning your lessons and coming into knowledge of God more feasible.

What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.

Edit: Also, the LMPG stands for Let My People Go. I used to use my friends as puppets during lunch to re-enact the Moses story, which is how I got my nickname. I live in Atlanta, GA during breaks and Hamilton, NY during school, but I've lived all around the world.

[Craig]

What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.

I would be lying if I said I didn't consider the validity of reincarnation, but the scripture has no validation for it and though it does not come out and say it is not true there are other scripture that seem to discount it.  Ray has touched on these.

Be very careful on what doctrines you want to hang your hat on, I could state vampires are real and I would like some verses in the Bible that either preclude vampirism or condemn it outright as evil.  I won't find these verses so I claim it as real?  Apply the same logic to aliens, time travel, etc. etc.  You see where I'm going.  Our ideas can become idols of our hearts.  I can't condemn an idea because scripture doesn't speak of it but if I go down that path rather than the path that scripture does speak about, I'm afraid I will miss out on the message that God wants us to strive for, and that is Christ living in us.  That is a very hard thing to let happen to us and IMO other ideas only make it harder.

Craig

[moseslmpg]

I'm not saying that reincarnation is true because there are no Scriptures that disprove it, but just pointing out that since there are none then one can't say that it is really disproved. It's fair game, or it appears to be so. I'm not trying to get people to change their beliefs, but I think that belief in reincarnation actually might be more helpful for certain people than for others. The idea that you are "chastised" after one life or after 108 doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me.

BTW depends on what you mean by vampires, but I think it would fall under stealing and harming one's health. I personally believe that vampires are just a literalization of certain types of demons, aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it), and time travel is certainly possible but not with any type of machine. I agree that our ideas are idols, but that includes pretty much all of them, especially any ideas of God. But that's the world we live in, and very few people will ever be able to remove these idols (at least in this life).

Out of curiosity, what message that God wants us to strive for does reincarnation obscure? That's basically all I want to know. It doesn't have to be the official position, but just the general Christian idea. Also, could someone give me their understanding of reincarnation? It seems to be a very misunderstood doctrine nowadays. Lastly, how does one explain away the near death experiences where one has been dead for hours, or anecdotal evidence of reincarnation? Again I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to know the arguments for the other side.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I do not want to argue for this side or against that side because that is fruitless. Here is what I believe.

The Word of God is the final authority for me.

Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment, 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many ONCE and ONCE FOR ALL, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting HIM.

Religious ideas that strain away from Christ, embrace reincarnation. They look to their formulas and ideas to resolve their imperfections and they invent their illusions to accommodate their beliefs that do not include the sacrifice of Christ. That should clarify this discussion should it not?

1 Tim 6: 20 O Timothy (moseslmpg ) guard and keep the deposit entrusted to you! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the SUBTLETIES and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. 21 For by making such profession some have erred, missed the mark as regards the FAITH. Grace be with you all! Amen so be it.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi moseslmpg,

I believe the Scripture that Arcturus gave make the idea of reincarnation an impossibility,
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment,"

I believe we are given this life as an "experience of evil," but not to have this evil experience repeated over and over.  That would be a horrible thought.

Ecc 1:13
(CLV) ...it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

(LITV) ...It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.

(NASB) ...It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.

(NKJV) ...this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.

(Rotherham) ...is the vexatious employment God hath given to the sons of men, to work toilsomely therein,

Also your idea; aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it),

We have a Scripture for that too.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

I believe this is a indication that there is no other human life.  What would be the point in that.  This Elect from this human race will be the means by which the "whole creation" shall be "delivered from the bondage of corruption."

Rom 8:21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
v. 22  And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

This is what I see in these Scriptures 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hebrewroots98]

Craig, Arcturus, and Kat,
Excellent scriptural references!  The truth of these scriptures speaks for themselves MOSESLMPG!   I would stick with the Word and only the Word, and not worry about what the spirit is not letting you know right now.  (You sound like you are Anne....are you?)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Great post Kat. I am glad you mentioned that scripture about Eve being the "mother of all living."

Here just to put the nail in the coffin of the false teachings of demonic reincarnation is this :

Acts 4 : 11 This Jesus is the Stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which has become the Head of the corner, the Cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in and through NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we MUST BE SAVED.

That pretty much says it all!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hebrewroots98]

Sorin, (I guess our emails crossed earlier). I found out about these riders b/c lots of them are from here in Lubbock ,Texas   Yes, I agree, that our soldiers died to give that mouthy group of christians  their freedom to be mouthy and negative at vulnerable funerals; I did not know that they finally got sued; maybe they will learn their lesson now?.   Yes, freedom of speech is coming to a close in our Country isn't it?  (In Philadelphia, one is not allowed to say the word 'gay' or they can be sued!!!!  A grandmother was picketing about 'gays' and she got thrown into jail.... )

Yes, that is our job while here to minister to those who are mourning....(Sad how the preachers enjoy judging on people going to hell while in the pulpit and then are hypocritical  at the funeral/graveyard where he would be FIRED (or possibly hurt) for saying the same thing in front of the family members; so he stays quiet at the funeral on the issue of hell...amazing!

So, where is your home now?  (sorry, I couldn't remember?)

[moseslmpg]

OK, since my post was deleted for whatever reason, can someone just give me a straight answer as to why reincarnation is bad?

At the risk of dissenting from the Infallible Truth of the common interpretation of the Scriptures as presented on this site, I don't believe that the verses provided prove anything about physical death. They of course are related to it, but I think to assume that they refer to only it to is have a shallow understanding of death and ignore the fact that Scripture is rarely literal.

I'm not going to touch the aliens though, lest my post be deleted again. Though one wonders what harm there is in asking a simple question.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. It has its origins in Egypt and is Pagan.

God says Ezekiel 20:7 Let EVERY man CAST AWAY  the abominable things on whichhe feasts his eyes, and defile NOT yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.


For me there is no discussion. No debate. No argument. No story worth observing or entertaining that would present a doctrine of demons as having any credibility or authenticity or love for Jesus Christ and His Father God. There is just no contest. 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[moseslmpg]

I know it is "a doctrine of demons," but I would like an explanation of exactly what is demonic about it. I am not going to debate it or argue either, I just want to know what characterizes reincarnation as demonic.

Saying reincarnation is bad because it is pagan or a doctrine of demons, is like saying something is bad because it is bad. And anyway, I think the pagan argument is the weakest one there is for this case because...well I probably can't say without my post being deleted. Suffice it to say that I would like an explanation rather than a scapegoat.

And in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not trying to convert anyone.

[Deborah-Leigh]

You know it is a doctrine of demons do you?

Why do I not believe that? .... If it is true that you DO KNOW IT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS then WHY do you wish to discuss it? I would much prefer to put my mind on Christ and HIS Doctrine and Gospel. That is food to my soul and life to my heart....

Peace to you

Arcturus

[moseslmpg]

When I say I know it, I mean I know that other people regard it as such. I'm just wondering why they think that and whether I am missing something.

[hillsbororiver]

At the risk of dissenting from the Infallible Truth of the common interpretation of the Scriptures as presented on this site,

Hi moseslmpg,

Is this response really necessary?

Perhaps instead of us scripturally refuting reincarnation you can provide the scriptural witnesses that support it.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[moseslmpg]

Well very few things are necessary, but that doesn't stop us from doing them. I'm still mildly frustrated that my post was deleted because I don't know why and as far as I know it didn't violate the forum rules. The idea that I got from that is if someone posts something, even a question, contrary to the consensus interpretation of the Bible the post is deleted. I can respect censorship in some cases, but I was clearly doing nothing wrong and I didn't even get a warning or indication that I was. This gives the illusion of infallibility and unwillingness to even consider other positions, so I felt that  the comment was warranted. Hopefully sarcasm isn't against the forum rules...


Anyway, back to the topic: I am not trying to convince anyone of reincarnation so giving evidence of it is pointless and could be construed as against teaching/preaching. I have already been given scriptural evidence that seems to refute reincarnation with a literal reading (although being untrue and being evil are two different things), but since that didn't help I would like someone to explain why reincarnation is bad.

I am asking a simple question, but people keep sidestepping it. Someone explain to me like I am a child, and I have no idea of what pagans are or what demonic means, why reincarnation is wrong. What ideal of Christianity does it obscure or corrupt?

If this is a futile line of questioning, please tell me and I will give it up.

[rk12201960]

Hi moseslmpg,

I didn't see the post but, which God would be doing the reincarnation?
If the scriptures say that people have no thoughts or works after death than which God would we be worshiping?

We are to have no other gods before our God and THATS what makes it wrong.

Gods speed.
Randy

[Kat]

Hi moseslmpg,

Forum rules in red.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

Your post that I pulled had, almost nothing to do with what is taught at BT.

This is a statement I pulled out of that post.

Forgive me if I come off as antagonistic or overly argumentative. This is just how I discuss things. I am actually making a lot of effort not to push my views on to others in the thread. But if I see something which I believe is wrong/harmful, I will at least give my opinion on it, as I expect others to do as well.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

Being argumentative is debating.
But if any of the other mods think that post should be reposted, then so be it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

If this is a futile line of questioning, please tell me and I will give it up.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Please consider that we are not inclined to give weight to every humanistic or pagan philosophy man has invented, our purpose here is to study the Word of God and the articles presented on Bible Truths, we could discuss the merits of Socialism, Nazism, Communism, New Age Philosophy, Atheism, etc. with zero resolution until the end of the ages if we decide to discount the importance of His Word, replacing it with our own reasoning.

This is not our purpose.

We can discuss scripture you feel supports reincarnation but it is unfair for you to put this burdon of disproving it on us, there are many things that are not specifically addressed in scripture but in using the principles presented you can discern the answers.

Drunk driving is not addressed.

Sex change operations are not addressed.

Gambling the rent money is not addressed.

Selling Mom's heirlooms for cocaine is not addressed.

Hacking computers is not addressed.

Shooting steroids is not addressed.

We have over 2000 pages of articles on Bible Truths as well as the entire Bible we can discuss why is this so critical and important and where in the rules you agreed to did you get the impression we are anxious to give credence to pagan beliefs?

We all should consider every person who may peruse this site (guest, new member, etc.) as we seek to increase our knowledge of His plan and purpose for His creation. If anyone seeks to explore outside of this outline then please do, there are many sites out there devoted to debate and an anything goes atmosphere. You are still more than welcome here but it is not our desire to go down that road in this Forum.

To be honest we have not even scratched the surface of the depths of the articles and scriptures that we have to resort to speculation of unscriptural theories.

I hope you understand.

Peace,

Joe

[Beloved]

I am going to make this short and to the point

Reincarnation implies that the soul is immortlal. This is totally unscriptural and has its sourse in Greek and Eyptian and othe cultures. Hense not a subject that interest people at the BTF.

Demonic is a malevolent spirit/ divsisive /clestial shining. In hebrew the serpent in the garden was given this later discrpition... Even though they are part of the power and principalities ....we know that all of these are under the control of God as part of HIS orderly arrangement.

They are of the dark....not the LIGHT...hence they too ....are of little interest to people at BTF.   

Beloved

[Chris R]

Well very few things are necessary, but that doesn't stop us from doing them. I'm still mildly frustrated that my post was deleted because I don't know why and as far as I know it didn't violate the forum rules. The idea that I got from that is if someone posts something, even a question, contrary to the consensus interpretation of the Bible the post is deleted. I can respect censorship in some cases, but I was clearly doing nothing wrong and I didn't even get a warning or indication that I was. This gives the illusion of infallibility and unwillingness to even consider other positions, so I felt that  the comment was warranted. Hopefully sarcasm isn't against the forum rules...

Dear moseslmpg

So there is no misunderstanding

If you have a problem with a moderator, the way the forum is managed, or another user of the forum then address this through private mails.  Publicly airing your grievances could be grounds for banishment, and will get your post deleted.

Please understand there is a set of rules YOU agreed to when you signed up, the above paragraph is ONE of those rules, and you are breaking it.

Please refrain from breaking the rules.

Chris R