Visions and visitations of hell

[Fedex Guy]

Hi all, I'm new to forum. I'd like some feedback............

I've been a Christian 20 years and only recently started to doubt some doctrines, including hell, tithing, and the "immortal soul". Ray's stuff has helped a lot, though I'm not ready to jump into the universalist "pond of fire" just yet.

I read that horrible testimony by Bill Weise (23 Minutes in Hell) and it scared the hell out of me. It was complete with a four minute video of hell (I still can't figure out how he smuggled a video camera down there) What you think about this, as well as other visions and visitations of hell? Even though I now doubt hell, reading it still scares me. It seems so real and vivid and he spoke so calmly giving his testimony.

Anyway, there are few things which don't add up. He gives the 18th or 19th century version of hell - the demons do the torturing. Now if God created hell for the devil and his angels, did he mean for it to be a kind of demonic Disney World, where demons have never ending fun torturing human souls?

He claims to have had an out of body experience, yet in hell he had a body. Also he says Jonah went to hell. I just read the whole book of Jonah and I didn't see where he went anywhere while he was in the fish's belly. I'm sure he felt as if he was in the grave, being buried alive and all, but hell?

Also an interesting note on the "immortal soul". When I search online for articles about hell, I could easily find both defenders and deniers. But when I search for articles on immortal soul, I had to look very hard to find even one article defending it. Maybe because it's indefensible. Yet the doctrine of hell relies heavily on immortality.

[M_Oliver]

You know the answers to your questions.  Welcome home .  Get over it and "move on to perfection"

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(Luke 8:14 KJVR)

Mark

[Sorin]

That guy is full of crap. I'm surprised that anyone can't see that due to his many contradictions, the guy is full of hot air. How anyone can make up a story like that, and stick with it as if it's the truth is beyond me-but there's really nothing to be afraid of, there is no such thing
as "hell".

Just my two cents,

-Sorin

P.S. Welcome Fedex Guy

[Beloved]

I am not sure what you mean...you could not find anyone defending the idea of Immortal soul The idea of immortal soul that was developed by the Greeks is so INGRAINED in our culture today that "the many" are totally blinded by it.

It like living with really bad BO because of constant bombrdment on the olfactory nerve...your nose can no longer smell it. The immortal soul has crept deep down into humanity...the religious of Alexandria infused the early church with it and Maimomades completely incorported iand replace traditional Judaism.  It is a hard concept for some to relingush.

As far as hell goes......If you look into history you can find early writers who introduced the whole idea of hell are gloating about the fact that they can now use it to control the masses as well as the elite.

There is nothing better thn fear to gain a persons attention...FIRE is a potent deterent but why does hell have to be fire....why not drowning or beatings or how about a boogey-bat who constantly sneaks up on you and takes big bites out of you all the time with instant tissue regeneration so the it would never run out of material. You are right about the Demon Disney World...that doesn't make any sense. Exactly what is the purpose for this endless atrocity.

The problem that people have with the Lake of Fire is that we do not understand exactly how judgement will be parceled out to those who are not among the elect. So the LOF doesn't seem fair to them.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Because God is Good and Loving ....we know God will pick out the absolutely perfect judgement for all of the offences in each person's life.

The glory that the Father will have is .....that all of the things that have happened to his creatures during their lives ....will then have meaning and purpose and ......all things will be perfectly restituted .....because His Son prepared the Way for their return.

Beloved

[Fedex Guy]

Thanks for your reply.

When I said I couldn't find any defense for the immortal soul, I was just referring to an internet search. I'm sure any pastor out there would be glad to defend it. Why do Christians, when they hear or read the word death, they automatically replace it in their minds with "endless torment in hell". I just don't get it. The wages of sin is what? 

Regards

[Sorin]

Thanks for your reply.

When I said I couldn't find any defense for the immortal soul, I was just referring to an internet search. I'm sure any pastor out there would be glad to defend it. Why do Christians, when they hear or read the word death, they automatically replace it in their minds with "endless torment in hell". I just don't get it. The wages of sin is what? 

Regards

Well that's because they like to add to and take away from; The Word of God. Otherwise their doctrines wouldn't fit.

[Kat]

Hi Fedex Guy,

Why do Christians, when they hear or read the word death, they automatically replace it in their minds with "endless torment in hell". I just don't get it.

It's called indoctrination, which means -cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions.

The church is very skillful at this, hearing these doctrines preached over and over, it works.  Control always their objective down through the ages, they have much motivation, which is power over the people and their money.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Fedex Guy]

Right. Now that you mention it, early in Christian life, I always heard the "explanation" that "you shall surely die" was really not only physical death, but spiritual death, or seperation from God. Just a few weeks ago, I spotted a "bait and switch" about this from my church. It went something like this: "You have to choose between life and death...." then later "you have to choose either eternal life in heaven or eternal life without Jesus in hell"

[Chris R]

Hi Fedex

Keep reading the website, you will find answers to all these questions and much more! There is no short cut in studying this web-site, the forum members cannot give you cliffsnotes on hundreds of pages of material, There isn't a paragraph that could explain in detail everything written on this site.

It takes time to process the information, still more time to un-think the doctrines of christendom, And time for the spirit of God to open up these truths.

Just say for example, there are 10 points to these teachings of L.Ray Smith, I have read the site and parts of it, 5 or 6 times over the past 3-4 years, and after all that reading searching and studying, i am on ..point 2.....

Give your self some time, read it with your bible in one hand, and search to see if these things be true! You will be amazed at what your going to see!

Peace

Chris R

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Fedex

It is wonderful that you are THINKING! The way you put immortal soul together with the heresy and false teaching on hell was quite a feat!

I can only endorse Chris and encourage you to keep studying the teachings here and continue to think about what the Word of God says and not what mankind believes or teaches.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[musicman]

What do all of these hell visits have in common? (well, besides that they're all a bunch of crap).  Absolutely nothing!!  Gee, you would think that if God were warning us of some horrific destination that the destination would be the same for all visitors.  Sometimes there's fire, sometimes there's worms, sometimes there's demons ripping people apart, sometimes it smells like rotten egg farts. . . Oh, and I love the one where the damned are dancing the cha cha barefoot on hot coals or something.  These people are ridiculous.  There's way more to Ray's writing than teaching against the hell doctrine.  His greatest teachings show what the scriptures say, not what they don't say.   

[Sorin]

Hahaha the cha cha on hot coals!

They also have in common that there is no way out of hell, yet they managed to get out. 

Also if there is no way out, then how is there a way in?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ray's.... greatest teachings show what the scriptures say, not what they don't say.   

Well stated musicman!...and therein lies the difference between those who misrepresent God because they do not know Him and those who represent God because they do know Him and they study His Word and represent what God says not what man thinks or what they think He says! A huge difference. One is focused on God and the other is focused on illusions or devils doctrines.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Fedex Guy]

What do all of these hell visits have in common? (well, besides that they're all a bunch of crap).  Absolutely nothing!!  Gee, you would think that if God were warning us of some horrific destination that the destination would be the same for all visitors.  Sometimes there's fire, sometimes there's worms, sometimes there's demons ripping people apart, sometimes it smells like rotten egg farts. . . Oh, and I love the one where the damned are dancing the cha cha barefoot on hot coals or something.  These people are ridiculous.  There's way more to Ray's writing than teaching against the hell doctrine.  His greatest teachings show what the scriptures say, not what they don't say.   

Good point, I noticed that too. Now I will answer my own question: we no more have to explain these visions than to explain people who have been abducted by aliens. I'm sure you can find many people who claim to have been to heaven, hell, other planets, etc. And don't forget near death experiences (most of which are positive rather than hellish, regardless of the person's faith.)
We can never base our faith on an experience someone says they had - even if it's our own experience. Truth comes from the Word of God, not the words of just anyone trying to sell a book or something.

[Sorin]

I think the people who have been abducted by aliens, should get together with those who have been to hell, or other planets, and let them
discuss their craziness amongst each other.

That's just my opinion. 

[gmik]

Welcome to the forum Fedex....Great thread...I enjoyed it immensely.

As far as Bill Wiese goes......what a crock!!!!


Who said there was a sucker born every minute??  Who could believe that swill?

I agree w/ Sorin, don't be afraid of Hell...there ain't one!!!!  Dante's Inferno has taken over Christendom and nobody is checking back to the ancients.

I just copied out the latest transcript and now I am checking out the Codex Sinaiticus from 300AD.  Fascinating stuff.

anyway, welcme again!!

[chuckt]

there is another one too called the 7 youths in hell.

it is some of the most vile and blaphemous  stuff out there!!

here:

As we continued walking with the Lord, I saw a very big column filled with worms.  Around it was a slide made of red-hot metal.  On this column there was a brightly-lit billboard that could be seen from anywhere.  The Billboard read, "Welcome all liars and gossipers."  At the end of the slide was a small boiling lagoon.  It looked like burning brimstone.  Then I saw a totally naked person coming down the slide.  As they slid, their skin would peel off and stick to the slide.  When they fell into the burning lagoon, their tongue expanded until it exploded and worms appeared in place of the tongue.  This began their torment.  The Word of God says in Psalm 73:18-19 "Surely you did set them in slippery places: you cast them down into destruction.  How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors."


http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jovenes/English_7_Jovenes_Hell.htm



these people will have ""hell""' to pay for distributing such filth


stuff gets me irritated to no end.....


chuckt