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Author Topic: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory  (Read 12541 times)

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Arthyron

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The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« on: December 30, 2007, 01:37:54 PM »


A while back I was reading through Daniel and came across a curious passage:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2010%20;&version=15;

This is something I'd like to see Ray do a study on sometime.  It basically tells a story of how Daniel has a vision in which the angel Gabriel comes to him to talk.  The thing that interests me is that Gabriel mentions how he was "detained" or "resisted" for a number of days by the "Prince" or "head" of Persia.  Now elsewhere in Scripture, an angel can slay a multitude of humans with ease, so it made me wonder "what, how could a human oppose an angel?"  After reading on past that, it talks of how Gabriel had to call Michael to aid him, and how he has to return soon, as the "head" of Greece is coming to help the "head" of Persia.

So what it seems to me is that this is a very clear glimpse of the spiritual battle that is going on in the background beyond our normal unaided perception.  It seems as though there are spiritual powers set out over certain regions or areas, and they appear at least in this instance to be opposed to God, perhaps demonic in nature.  It definitely lends credence to the passage in Ephesians 6:12:

12because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;


So it got me thinking about Ray's teaching of God's "family" and the like, which then resonated with another idea theorized by a Hebrew scholar named Dr. Michael Heiser.  It's known in most theological circles as the "Divine Council" theory.  It proposes that according to the Hebrew of the Old Testament, that the pantheon of Scripture is not a Monotheistic one as is taught by most Christians, but rather a Henotheistic one, in which there are many spiritual beings, but only one that is above all and worthy of worship.

So I'm wondering if anyone else has ever encountered the idea of the Judeo/Christian mythos being Henotheistic, and if anyone has heard of the Divine Council and what their thoughts are on it?  If you haven't heard of either, Dr. Heiser has some pdf's on his website from his studies:  *links not allowed*

In reading through some of his writings, there seems to be quite a bit that meshes with what Ray teaches.  I'm also wondering your thoughts on the passage I linked to in Daniel and what that means for how and what we should pray in regards to global/political/economic/social affairs.  There seems to be a LOT of very deep and large implications to these few passages and ideas.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 03:15:53 PM by Kat »
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hebrewroots98

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 03:11:35 PM »

Hi Athyron,
The simple of it (imo) is that certain demons have the authority to rule and oppress over certain places/principalities in the earth.  By just observing w/ ones' physical eyes we can see how those demonic spirits operate; (the spirit of murder, death, suicide, as well as terrorism coming from the Muslum (spirit) part of the world; the spirit of greed,materialism, lying, cheating,  and pride/arrogance in the USA; the spirit of povery in the 3rd world countries; etc... ( B/c of this, I believe that the Elect of God will also reside over certain areas/prinicpalities of the world when it comes to assisting Christ in  judging the world of their sins and in teaching them of righteousness.  Thus, Ephesians 6 supports this.  These princes are the leaders/strong holds of Persia as you stated from the Book of Daniel.  I am not sure how humans can oppose angels in this life, but, in the life to come, the elect will be helping to judge even these beings, so I am thinking that God will put a limit on their abilities at that time; (not now), thus, we then will oppose the angels.  Absolutely these are the spiritual forces that we cannot see.  But, in the light of the spirit of this topic, with Christ, all things are possible; and with Christ in us, we are HIs representives while here, so we do have HIS authority in us to cast down any spirits that come against the truth, and those spirits are made to obey Christ and leave us when commanded to.

I do believe that in the OT that alot of the fallen angels became the pagan gods of the OT and even in the Mythology of that time (saturn, baal, janice, mythra, zues,and many, many others) and  exactly where Dr. Heiser gets his theory from.   I have not read this Divine Council.  As to how to pray, God is in control of those forces as well, so we can pray for HIS guidance and HIS will in dealing or not dealing with these dark spiritual forces.  God has put people in certain high places (as Presidents, Kings, rulers,) and for HIS reasons.  He can use them for building up a country or for destroying a country...it's all in HIS design and for HIS purposes...(but, there are always the evil forces in the midst waiting to do their damnable deeds to kill, steal,a nd destroy.... these demons manisfest and work through these vessles (these people!)

I hope that I did'nt muddy the waters even more, lol! ;)  godd post btw!
blessings,
Susan
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hebrewroots98

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 03:53:46 PM »

I have heard of Dr.Heisner on the talk show Coast to Coast, as well as he is a guest speaker at the Roswell UFO annual get togethers quite often, (which is only about 2 hrs from where I live,.) though I have never spoken with him in person.  I am impressed with this Dr.'s educational background, soemthing that I would love to study.  His websites are very interesting, and long ;)

As I was saying about these demons that rule over certain places, I have told my dad (who is into worrying about where our country is headed,) that God sometimes uses our enemies (from other countries in this case) to take down a sinful country, in order to humble them and get them to turn back to HIM....so, even if my dad did get a group together to protest an issue, if it was Gods'will that this country does not prosper, then all his protesting will do no good in the end! ;)
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Beloved

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 04:05:14 PM »

Good answer Susan

Mankind is always trying to take "ownership" of things outside their own sphere. It gives them a sense of power and control. The thing on their throne is looking in every crevise for a way to escape the sovergnity of God.

The powers and principalities are there and we should be thankful that God revealed this to mankind. Our finite state limits what we can understand. The Good that come out of Evil is uncomprehensible because we can't see or know all that is going on.   

From the passage you quoted in Daniel  I can only imagine that the battles must be increasing because of the increase in evil in the world today. Right now we are to study and show ourselves approved....there is enough righteous and tru information to contemplate.  The next age will bring judgement to the wicked and put evil underfoot.

As far as the gods being named from these pricipalities...sure but remember man can make "anything" a god. If a martian came to tennesee and looked Batman Building down town they would think we worshipped electric towers...it looks just like one. The silly world thinks it is in control of everything and therefore is kept busy naming and explaining and worshiping their idols. .Divine Council ::)  :P

Ecc 12:12 
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.


Mat 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Beloved
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2007, 05:47:49 PM »

Wise posts Hebrewroots 98 and Beloved.

God who is Sovereign is working all things to good for those who love HIM.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
 
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dewey

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2007, 08:03:09 PM »

hey folks , here is what works for me, it is really quite simple. IN THE NAME OF JEASUS GET BE
HIND ME satin. try it you may be pleasntly suprised.  THANK YOU FATHER .       dewey                           
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Arthyron

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 09:39:18 AM »

Hi Athyron,
The simple of it (imo) is that certain demons have the authority to rule and oppress over certain places/principalities in the earth.  By just observing w/ ones' physical eyes we can see how those demonic spirits operate; (the spirit of murder, death, suicide, as well as terrorism coming from the Muslum (spirit) part of the world; the spirit of greed,materialism, lying, cheating,  and pride/arrogance in the USA; the spirit of povery in the 3rd world countries; etc... ( B/c of this, I believe that the Elect of God will also reside over certain areas/prinicpalities of the world when it comes to assisting Christ in  judging the world of their sins and in teaching them of righteousness.  Thus, Ephesians 6 supports this.  These princes are the leaders/strong holds of Persia as you stated from the Book of Daniel.  I am not sure how humans can oppose angels in this life, but, in the life to come, the elect will be helping to judge even these beings, so I am thinking that God will put a limit on their abilities at that time; (not now), thus, we then will oppose the angels.  Absolutely these are the spiritual forces that we cannot see.  But, in the light of the spirit of this topic, with Christ, all things are possible; and with Christ in us, we are HIs representives while here, so we do have HIS authority in us to cast down any spirits that come against the truth, and those spirits are made to obey Christ and leave us when commanded to.

Yeah, that seems to be what I got out of it.  It's why I brought up Dr. Heiser, because he has some very compelling Scriptural evidence to show how these spiritual powers (if they be spirit in nature) assumed power, and I haven't seen Ray or anyone else here do a study on it (though it seems when Ray touches on things close to this, they seem to line up pretty well).

There seems to be an indication possibly in Deuteronomy.  Coming just out of the story of the tower of Babel when the nations were made into nations and scattered, there's a very curious passage in Deuteronomy 32:8:

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
       when he divided all mankind,
       he set up boundaries for the peoples
       according to the number of the sons of Israel.
[c]

Notice the footnote indicator there, here's what the footnote says:

Deuteronomy 32:8 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint)  sons of God

If you replace "according to the number of the sons of Israel" with "according to the number of the sons of God," a huge set of implications comes up with it.  Firstly, I think that "sons of God" is the proper translation because it seems to be the older one, and furthermore it makes more sense.  How could and why would God (aside from peering into the future) divide up the scattered nations according to the number of the sons of Israel, especially because Israel wouldn't come to be a nation until much later?  It makes more sense if He were to divide it according to the number of the sons of God.  Now from what I've learned, the term "sons of God" (Hebrew b'nei elohim, בני האלהים) is almost always a euphemism for angels or those directly created by God (Adam was a "son of God" as was Christ and so are we when the Lord chooses to remake us). 

Later in the passage, it refers to the fact that God chose Israel as "His portion."  If He chose it as his portion, then what of the other nations that are not "His portion?" I think that the other nations (due to their wickedness as mentioned in verse 5 and later in verse 17) were given over (as God gives someone over to their sins) to be ruled/punished by these other spiritual forces, or perhaps God simply didn't watch over them as He did Israel and these forces took over.  But the fact that "sons of God" is used in the Dead Sea Scrolls in verse 8 makes me really wonder.  It's clear only a few verses later in verse 17 that the other nations had taken up to worshiping demons and other false gods (as Jeshrun started forsook God and started worshiping "foreign" gods that had only "recently" come about), so do you think I'm too off-base with this idea?

I think it makes sense of a lot of things.  Consider in the passage I mentioned earlier in Daniel where it talks of the "Prince of Persia" and the like.  Well oddly enough the same term ("prince" or "head") is attributed to the angel Michael (whom Ray has entertained the possibility could be another name for Christ).  He referred to as a "prince" or "head" in both that passage and another passage (Daniel 12:1), only Michael is referred to as the "great head" rather than merely the "head."

So when you survey all of this and add it together, it seems that these powers that Gabriel spoke of in Daniel 11 were either placed there by God or took over after God forsook those nations and instituted themselves as rulers and in some cases gods, as people seemed to be worshiping them and making sacrifices to them.  But the terminology (sons of God, princes, heads, etc) also seems to link them to some sort of kinship with Michael, despite that Michael seems to be above them in some way. 

So this is basically the Divine Council theory boiled down, that there were other spiritual beings (be they angels, archangels, what have you) that God counted as part of His family (hence "sons of God") that either turned and opposed Him, or were placed in those positions by God and then opposed Him after being exalted and worshiped by men.  It gives an explanation as to what these "princes" or "heads" are, why they're in power, where demons came from (since Scripture doesn't explicitly tell us where they came from or why they exist to my knowledge) and a host of other unexplained instances. 

Another thing it explains is a lot of the wars and battles in the Old Testament.  One of the things I encounter in talking with non-believers is they have difficulty believing that God is good despite ordering the slaughter of various nations (despite the evidence that such nations sacrificed their children to Moloch, etc) and such.  If you take into account this idea that I find very reasonable, all of the wars and conflict in the Old Testament seem to make sense.  They were essentially a spiritual turf war, in which those who served God battled with those who served these "princes" or "heads" (whether they were consciously aware of it or not).  Sometimes God would lead the Israelites into battle and grant them victory over these other wicked nations, and sometimes when Israel herself grew wicked, he would allow them to be defeated or worse taken into captivity by these wicked nations.  If you look on a map where Israel went in and slaughtered everyone or had great military victories, and you look at a map where servants of these false gods (and oddly enough descendants of the Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim/etc, but that's another matter which Ray has only briefly touched on that I'd like to see a study of) lived, the two almost directly overlap.  It's almost as if God was using Israel to take back the land from the servants of these allegedly spiritual principalities/powers.

Quote
I do believe that in the OT that alot of the fallen angels became the pagan gods of the OT and even in the Mythology of that time (saturn, baal, janice, mythra, zues,and many, many others) and  exactly where Dr. Heiser gets his theory from.   I have not read this Divine Council.  As to how to pray, God is in control of those forces as well, so we can pray for HIS guidance and HIS will in dealing or not dealing with these dark spiritual forces.  God has put people in certain high places (as Presidents, Kings, rulers,) and for HIS reasons.  He can use them for building up a country or for destroying a country...it's all in HIS design and for HIS purposes...(but, there are always the evil forces in the midst waiting to do their damnable deeds to kill, steal,a nd destroy.... these demons manisfest and work through these vessles (these people!)

Yeah, that's a belief I've had for quite some time, and one shared by C.S. Lewis.  Another interesting factoid was that C.S. Lewis also believed that God would save everyone.  His conversion came around age 35 from atheism to theism, then from theism to Christianity.  Being a scholar at Oxford alongside his friend J.R.R. Tolkien, he studied the Scriptures in their original languages (since literature, especially ancient Greek, was his forte).  Interesting that even back then when so few people had the truth of Scripture, and the "church" had such a strangle hold on everything, he held such a view fairly openly and is still widely regarded as one of the most important Christian authors of the last century by virtually everyone. 

But yeah, if there is any truth to what I've learned from the Scriptures, this theory that you and I share would make perfect sense.  I'd definitely like to see Ray do a study on this sometime. It definitely is a possible explanation for why demons/fallen angels exist in the first place.

Quote
I hope that I did'nt muddy the waters even more, lol! ;)  godd post btw!
blessings,
Susan

Not at all, good to see there are other Bible Truths people who think it's a viable theory.

Quote
I have heard of Dr.Heisner on the talk show Coast to Coast, as well as he is a guest speaker at the Roswell UFO annual get togethers quite often, (which is only about 2 hrs from where I live,.) though I have never spoken with him in person.  I am impressed with this Dr.'s educational background, soemthing that I would love to study.  His websites are very interesting, and long Wink

As I was saying about these demons that rule over certain places, I have told my dad (who is into worrying about where our country is headed,) that God sometimes uses our enemies (from other countries in this case) to take down a sinful country, in order to humble them and get them to turn back to HIM....so, even if my dad did get a group together to protest an issue, if it was Gods'will that this country does not prosper, then all his protesting will do no good in the end! Wink

Yeah, I have a dvd he made with several lectures/studies he's given on the topic (I was impressed that he didn't charge anything for the dvd's).  He also has some videos up on google video too.  He doesn't seem to be afraid of questioning and criticizing the common teaching regarding that whole concept, and so far all I've seen of what he has written seems to be spiritually (and rationally) sound.  He's writing a book currently about the whole theory and a few other topics, I'm definitely interested in checking that out when it's done (he's about 2/3 of the way finished with it).

Quote
From the passage you quoted in Daniel  I can only imagine that the battles must be increasing because of the increase in evil in the world today. Right now we are to study and show ourselves approved....there is enough righteous and tru information to contemplate.  The next age will bring judgement to the wicked and put evil underfoot.

As far as the gods being named from these pricipalities...sure but remember man can make "anything" a god. If a martian came to tennesee and looked Batman Building down town they would think we worshipped electric towers...it looks just like one. The silly world thinks it is in control of everything and therefore is kept busy naming and explaining and worshiping their idols. .Divine Council Roll Eyes  Tongue

Ecc 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Mat 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Yeah, it's possible that evil is increasing, though sometimes I wonder with some of the atrocities and widespread Godlessness in the history of our planet.  Certainly the potential for evil to have a larger impact is greater in today's world (with the internet and global politics and the like), but I don't know about the total amount of evil being more or less, it certainly seems as though there is more.  I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Divine Council theory as an idol of the heart, though, it's just a name for a particular interpretation of Scripture.  Hopefully my shortened explanation of it will be food for thought, or at least food for further discussion. ;)

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions everyone. :)
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Kat

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 02:52:29 PM »


Hi Arthyron,

You speculate that in Deu 32:8 that sons of God, is speaking of angels. 

Deu 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

But notice that it has already stated "borders of the peoples" not angels. 

Quote
How could and why would God (aside from peering into the future) divide up the scattered nations according to the number of the sons of Israel, especially because Israel wouldn't come to be a nation until much later?

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

I know these are just speculations you have, from the sources you have read.   Your souce is interesting, but reading through the commentaries, they seem to stick with the idea this is speaking of people on earth.

Clarke- the earth was very early divided in consequence of a Divine command, and probably by lot, (see Act_17:26); and as Africa is called the land of Ham, (Psa_78:51; Psa_105:23, Psa_105:27; Psa_106:22), probably that country fell to him and to his descendants, at the same time that Europe fell to Japheth, and Asia to Shem, with a particular reserve of Palestine to be the Lord’s portion, for some one peculiar people. 
He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel - The Septuagint is very curious, Εστησεν ὁρια εθνων κατα αριθμον αγγελων του Θεου. “He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.” The meaning of the passage seems to be, that when God divided the earth among mankind, he reserved twelve lots, according to the number of the sons of Jacob, which he was now about to give to their descendants, according to his promise.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 03:04:51 PM »

While I was in Babylon I came accross teachings that authorised provincial, geographical and article (various objects )  powers to Demons.

For me this takes the impact off the fact that God is the Principle Sovereign power and not Satan or his demons. It is God who makes evil and God has made Satan. This is NOT taught by Babylon and neither is it understood, percieved or accepted. It is God who has made the smith (Ray Smith ;D ) to blow on the coals,  and the waster for God's Plan and Purpose. What I am saying is that the references to evil and demonology are vast in the attire of what is called spiritual illumination in Babylon. The references to God and His Sovereignty are nill.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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skydreamers

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2007, 08:00:30 PM »

Hi everyone,

Thought I'd throw out something that I see in all of this.  It's just my opinion of course but I'm not entirely convinced that this "Gabriel" of Daniel is necessarily a "celestial" being.  I'm not saying he is or he isn't, but I am saying that from the passages in Daniel it's not entirely clear, at least not to me.

The name Gabriel actually means "man of God" and in this verse we see him being called a "man":

yes, while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, touched me in my severe exhaustion, about the time of the evening sacrifice.
Daniel 9:21

and Daniel states that he had seen this "man" in his previous vision....

so is it not possible that the first time Daniel sees Gabriel it is in a vision which is like a dream....then in Daniel 9 God sends the actual "man" Gabriel to explain the vision....The first time Daniel is clearly seeing a vision, the second time he is praying when Gabriel shows up.  So it seems possible to me that Daniel was given a prior vision of Gabriel a human messenger (since not all messengers are necessarily celestial) who was to come to him in person.

This is similar to what happened to Saul/Paul who saw Ananias in a vision before he came to heal him of his blindness.

And the Lord said to him (to Ananias), Arise and go into the street which is called Straight and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus. For behold, he is praying, and has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him so that he might receive his sight.
Acts 9:11-12

So here we have a case of Paul being given a prior vision of someone who was sent from the Lord to heal him of his blindness.

In Daniel 10 we see Daniel in a deep vision again, and then...Gabriel shows up and touches him setting him up on his knees and thus arousing him out of the deep sleep (vision). 

Then he said to me, Do not fear, Daniel; for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and to chasten yourself before your God, your words were heard. And I have come for your words. But the ruler of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days. But lo, Michael, one of the chief rulers, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to make you understand what shall happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is yet for many days.
Daniel 10:12-14


Gabriel doesn't make clear where he has come from and he certainly doesn't say he has come from some "celestial" dimension/place.  And in this case Michael could also be referring to a human chief ruler...the name Michael meaning "who is as God?".

[this is not to rule out that these "persons" point to or are types of spiritual figures...like Michael representing Jesus..."]

So it seems plausible to me that a "man of God" (Gabriel) was appointed by God to go to Daniel to give him the words/message of God.  And so, the ruler of the kingdom of Persia is not necessarily some demon being at all, but exactly that...the ruler of the kingdom of Persia...a "human" ruler...[this is not to rule out that these events/people "represent" spiritual" events or aspects within our lives...]

In Daniel's vision (Dan8) we have a reference to one standing before Daniel with the "appearance" of a man and with a man's voice telling Gabriel to explain to Daniel...

so in my mind, we have two characters in play...one with the "appearance" of a man and one called a "man"....the two are not necessarily the same "person"...

I know traditionally it is taught that Gabriel is an "archangel" but traditions (as we know) are not always correct. 

I also don't think there is any scriptural proof for there being "fallen angels"....demons are spirit...not necessarily "beings"....to take this passage and conjour up ideas of demon beings ruling over lands doesn't seem credible to me.

Again, this is just how I see it...I'm open to criticism/comments...it's all about learning.

Peace,
Diana




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hebrewroots98

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 08:47:30 PM »

Great contrast Arc!  Nill..how sad!!! ::)

Arthyron,
As for the issue of 'sons of God and 'daughters of men/sons of men, and how the angels relate with this..., I do not know.  I do have alot of materials related to the Nephilim and sons of God, but, as of yet,I have not been able to sort it all out yet.  I will one of these days hopefully., as I am very intrigued by this topic.  

 
After browsing the web site of Dr Heisers', he has a very impressive resume' of the different number of learning institutions that he has learned and taught at.  I am also amazed that he has authored  such a tremendous amount of books; his books  are all topics of great interest to me... mostly all of it dealing with the Old Testament and ancient times issues.  He is a very accomplished scholar and very good at what he has done, however, I get the impression that he too is still in Babylon and that he is a very strong CHRISTIAN; that bothers me for a man of his caliber.  I mean, he does a great job at interpretting the old testament, but, I hear very little in comparison to the New Testament interpretations.  Also, I do not hear any of him giving thanks to God for making him into who he is and for giving him the knowledge that he has; infact, I see that he might even have a bit of pride for being as accomplished as he has become...as an idol in his heart of??  I know that God has not called this guy to the entire truths, but wouldn't it be great for YOU, ARTHYRON, to teach him of these ultimate biblical truths :o??

...I just have a hard time trusting ANYONE whom does not have the unity of the spirit as we have here at BT's.  We have some of the WORLDS' best scholars here at BT's when in comes to discerning and  interpreting the whole TRUTH from what is  DECEPTION!!!  (Thank you to Ray and all the Mods and members!...and yet, I do not see one ounce of boasting or puffed up- edness, all I see is humility in each scholar who is here!!!)  He is interesting for sure, but, just be careful my friend in whom you trust to teach you the ultimate truth ;)

Yes, it would be nice to hear more from Ray on these very hard topics...just keep praying for him ;)

blesings,
Susan
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hebrewroots98

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 08:51:27 PM »

Hello there Diane!!!  Long time no see.  It is good to hear from you again; I have just gotten back onto the forum after a stint away. 

I like your point of view; but as i said before, I am lost on this subject and will just have to have the Lord show me the truth in HIS timing for me...after too many years in Babylon, I still have some baggage I'm sure ;) :)!
Blessings,
Susan
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Kat

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 10:22:15 PM »


Hi Diana,

Interesting idea.

Quote
So it seems possible to me that Daniel was given a prior vision of Gabriel a human messenger (since not all messengers are necessarily celestial) who was to come to him in person.

But we do know that angels appear in human form, as it is stated here also;

Dan 8:15  Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.

Then there is the man voice, this is not Gabriel, maybe this is God instructing Gabriel?

Dan 8:16  And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."

Daniel is afraid of this 'man,' as many are when an angel appears to them.

Dan 8:17  So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."
Dan 8:18  Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright.

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I also don't think there is any scriptural proof for there being "fallen angels"....demons are spirit...not necessarily "beings"....

I'm not sure that you meant that there were no demon beings at all.
I think that there are spiritual character traits in people that is not a demon being.  Like people can have a spirit of jealousy like in Num. 5:14, spirit of harlotry in Hosea 4:12, spirit of bondage in Rom. 8:15, spirit of slumber in Rom. 11:8, spirit of infirmity in Luke 13:11, or spirit of fear in 2 Tim 1:7, these are not demon beings that possess them.
But I think there are demon beings as well.  As in the story in Mark 5 where Jesus saw the man at the tombs, possessed by the demon named Legion.  Jesus spoke with this demon, not something you would do to a spiritual character trait of a person.

Mar 5:8  For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mar 5:9  Then He asked him, "What is your name?"  And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many."

Also these demons left the man and went into a herd of swine, animals can't have any kind of character traits, maybe that is why they ran in the water and drown.

Jesus also tells a parable about a unclean spirit going out a person, if it still exist outside of the person, that would seem to make it it's own being.

Luke 11:24  "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest;

Just a few more things to think about  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2008, 02:36:36 PM »

Diana

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution.

To go into the discussion concerning who and who is not of the Devil....

To quote Ray from LOF part 2 quote : Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Angel means messenger of God. Ray must be an Angel! :D ;D

As for "fallen" and the term and doctrine that lines up with this concept. Nothing is "fallen" that God did not cause to fall!

I like how Ray asks quote : Can the high priests of Christendom ever get anything Scripturally correct? They cite Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 They claim that a PERFECT AND GLORIOUS LIGHT-BRINGING ARCHANGEL CHANGED HIMSELF INTO SATAN THE DEVIL, whereas we just read in the divine, inspired, infallible Word of God that contrariwise, it is SATAN THE DEVIL WHO HAS TRANSFORMED HIMSELF INTO A PERFECT AND GLORIOUS ANGEL OF LIGHT! The Scriptures teach the diametric opposite from what Christendom is teaching.

It is insidious how Babylon is able to twist God's Word.

God created Satan who is a murderer from the beginning with no truth in him. Babylon teaches that an Angel made by God turned himself into Satan! Free willingly, against God's will and Sovereignty this  rebellious Angel had followers who were fallen and who went against God's Plan and intentions with power that was too much for God and caught God on the wrong foot! Poor, incompetent God. He did not know this would happen and was powerless to stop it or change it or correct it according to Babylon who is now serving God to keep Him off the hook of responsibility by teaching it is mans fault and the Devil is more powerful than God who is aloof, distant, too holy and too remote for man to approach Him. Only Babylon Priests have that power. 

God says differently.  :)

God says Satan can transform himself into an Angel of light and that HE (The Sovereign Allmighty, All knowing GOD )made him! HE ( God)  made him (Satan as His, adversary and this is )perfectly fitted to HIS (God's )own Plan and Purpose too! :)

I have never heard such a teaching ever to come out of Babylon! Don't expect to either. ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

 

« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 02:44:33 PM by Arcturus »
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jER

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2008, 08:57:48 PM »

An Adversary merely offers opposition, as in an opponent (enemy) and is nothing but a "contrary wind."
Therefore, who is it that acts contrary by nature, as an obstinate child, and exalts himself?

"Man will promptly defend any thought, not at variance with his expectations, nor contrary to his own interests." - JER
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Arthyron

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2008, 07:29:43 PM »


Hi Arthyron,

You speculate that in Deu 32:8 that sons of God, is speaking of angels. 

Deu 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

But notice that it has already stated "borders of the peoples" not angels.

Right, and I allowed for that reading of the Scriptures in my interpretation.  I fully believe he divided the borders of the people for the purposes of splitting them into distinct nations.  But the point of interest/contention/discussion is by what measure he divided them.  Even the commentary you quoted below renders the phrase "according to the number of the angels of God."  It also pointed out that the wording was very peculiar. Also, like I said, all my studies have taught that the term "Sons of God" in the Old Testament is almost always a euphemism for "angels," rather than men.  So what I'm wondering is why God chose to divide them up according to the number of these celestial beings (if that's the right interpretation) rather than some other measure. 

What I'm saying is that it seems to make more sense if you consider all the other passages I mentioned (Daniel, the other passages in Deuteronomy, etc, and the scope of all the wars and such in the Old Testament as a whole) if this passage is saying that the nations were divided up according to the number of these "angels," and that they were given principality or dominion over these lands.  Because remember, there is that single passage, but there are all the other passages about how God chose Israel as His portion, his inheritance.  Why didn't he choose all the other nations (since the whole world is His anyway)?  If God chooses Israel as His allotment, then to whom did the other nations belong to (if anyone)?  Who or what (if anything) was placed over them? That's what I'm trying to discern here, in light of the context of Daniel and the other passages mentioned.

While I was in Babylon I came accross teachings that authorised provincial, geographical and article (various objects )  powers to Demons.

For me this takes the impact off the fact that God is the Principle Sovereign power and not Satan or his demons. It is God who makes evil and God has made Satan. This is NOT taught by Babylon and neither is it understood, percieved or accepted. It is God who has made the smith (Ray Smith ;D ) to blow on the coals,  and the waster for God's Plan and Purpose. What I am saying is that the references to evil and demonology are vast in the attire of what is called spiritual illumination in Babylon. The references to God and His Sovereignty are nill.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Certainly true.  And it's not like this is a life or death matter or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of a somewhat elusive and vague but very important event in the world's history.  Those passages really just seemed to stick out to me.

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I know traditionally it is taught that Gabriel is an "archangel" but traditions (as we know) are not always correct.

I also don't think there is any scriptural proof for there being "fallen angels"....demons are spirit...not necessarily "beings"....to take this passage and conjour up ideas of demon beings ruling over lands doesn't seem credible to me.

Again, this is just how I see it...I'm open to criticism/comments...it's all about learning.

Peace,
Diana

That's a very unusual but very interesting take on the issue, Diana.  I hadn't heard that interpretation before, and much of what you said does make sense and carry much weight.  However thing that makes me doubt it is the terminology used regarding "Michael" and "prince/head."  Later on in Daniel 12 it talks of how Michael the prince will arise and such.  It seems to be speaking of a time in the future, seemingly beyond the extent of a human lifespan.  So if the passage in Daniel is referring to a mere man named Michael, rather than some sort of celestial being, the man would likely have to live abnormally long or be resurrected for this time when he would "arise" or something, assuming it's speaking of some actual event, rather than a spiritual concept (such as someone of the same spirit as the man Michael, etc).

Also, if they are mere men, it seems that they are individuals making war (no mention is given of their armies).  Now it could be that their armies are "understood" when they refer to themselves, of course, but it doesn't seem to be that way to me, at least.  It seems to be Gabriel + Michael vs. Prince of Persia + Prince of Greece.  And then there's the matter in verse 21 of Daniel 10 where it says no one supports Gabriel but Michael.  That's also a curious passage I'm not sure how exactly to take.

It is rather odd, though, that there would be a "Gabriel and Michael" as men in the Old Testament, and then a "Gabriel and Michael" as angles in the New Testament, assuming your view is correct.  If that's the case then there's probably some deeper spiritual meaning behind it, which is why I keep saying I'd like Ray to study this sometime.

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Arthyron,
As for the issue of 'sons of God and 'daughters of men/sons of men, and how the angels relate with this..., I do not know.  I do have alot of materials related to the Nephilim and sons of God, but, as of yet,I have not been able to sort it all out yet.  I will one of these days hopefully., as I am very intrigued by this topic. 

Yeah, they've always been a subject that intrigued me since I ran across the passage in Genesis 6 when I was younger.  Ray doesn't seem to think that the Nephilim are related to the demonic in any way ( http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#nephilum ), but it doesn't seem that Ray has done a whole lot of research on that particular issue (which doesn't surprise me, as it's not a very important issue and most people haven't even heard of it or know that it's in the Bible to begin with), since the term "Nephilim" (Hebrew: נפלים) is one that seems to have a variety of interpretations and is hard to pin down (which is why I was drawn to Heiser's work, because he explored all these interpretations and what they would imply, as well as giving his opinion on the word itself as a Hebrew scholar).

Scripture is quite clear that angels in heaven do not marry nor are given in marriage (Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25), but it's odd that Christ mentioned "angels in heaven" rather than merely angels.  Then there's another peculiar passage in Jude:

Jude 1:5-7
"5and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;

6messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."


Some people believe that this passage is referring to the events of Genesis 6.  But yeah, again, not a particularly "important" topic, but one I've found fascinating. 

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After browsing the web site of Dr Heisers', he has a very impressive resume' of the different number of learning institutions that he has learned and taught at.  I am also amazed that he has authored  such a tremendous amount of books; his books  are all topics of great interest to me... mostly all of it dealing with the Old Testament and ancient times issues.  He is a very accomplished scholar and very good at what he has done, however, I get the impression that he too is still in Babylon and that he is a very strong CHRISTIAN; that bothers me for a man of his caliber.  I mean, he does a great job at interpretting the old testament, but, I hear very little in comparison to the New Testament interpretations.  Also, I do not hear any of him giving thanks to God for making him into who he is and for giving him the knowledge that he has; infact, I see that he might even have a bit of pride for being as accomplished as he has become...as an idol in his heart of??  I know that God has not called this guy to the entire truths, but wouldn't it be great for YOU, ARTHYRON, to teach him of these ultimate biblical truths Shocked??

Yeah, I'm not sure about what he believes regarding the New Testament and all the issues that the people at BT focus on.  He is a Hebrew scholar, after all, so he tends to focus on the part of the Bible written in Hebrew academically.  I don't know what his views are on the New Testament, only that he proclaims his faith in Christ (which of course doesn't necessarily mean anything).  But even if he is still in Babylon, it doesn't mean that what he says is automatically without merit, when it comes to technical issues of the meaning of Hebrew words. 

As for giving thanks to God and issues of pride, I don't believe it's our place to judge him on the matter.  It very well may be the case, but ultimately only God knows, and again, the Lord can work through all people, even those of us who sin. ;)  I'm a firm proponent of the passage in 1 Thessalonians that says to test everything and hold on to the good.  I feel that there is at least some truth in what Dr. Heiser has studied even if he himself has not yet come to the Truth. He has done a lot of work in exposing false teachers and false teachings regarding Scripture (particularly a popular author named Zecharia Sitchin).

That would be amazing if the Lord allowed me to have an impact on his life like that and I pray the the Lord gives me or someone else who has the truth in them the opportunity. 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2008, 09:15:04 PM »

This may be off base slightly but I have always found it incredible that snakes, serpents, dragons, etc. seem to pop up in the symbolism of the "deities" in almost all cultures. It is almost as if Satan himself was having a good laugh over how he got to the top of the food chain over our temporal flesh, all over the world.

As far as geopolitical theories and all go I no longer have much interest in the subject, at one time I was a political maniac who thought I had the answers or at least the right ideology, I now have complete faith in God's plan and purpose for His Spiritual Sons and Daughters. He is using this disposable flesh to suit a grand design that completes us incorruptable and immortal, the web and flow of earthly nations is but one small part of that.

The spiritual battle within is the much larger part!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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hebrewroots98

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Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2008, 10:55:32 PM »

Hi Athyron,
I totally agree that Dr. Heiser is a great Hebrew Authority and a great help in understanding the Old Testament.  I too am particularly interested in the Nephelim of Gen. 6 too; I may have some of his books if he has written about them particularly...(I have alot of books on the Gen 6 issue ;)...I'll check and see.  (Yes, I would love to hear Ray elaborate on this topic a bit more too; maybe someday, b/c I too am concerned about that Jude scripture and how it relates to Gen. 6?)  I had to put the subject down for awhile b/c I was just not sure of the truth about it.   

I love the Hebrew  language that our original bibles were translated from; thus HEBREWROOTS98 (I also used to be Messsianic where I learned and kept all of the OT Appointed Feasts and Festivals...shadows and foreshadows.)

Yes, God has not (yet? ever?) called the Hebrew Scholar out of Babylon, but he has certainly been blessed by God for HIM to give this unique info and history to him.; I am sure that he has done well to expose those who claim to interpret the OT correctly; that is alot of hard and endless work.  I am not at all discounting that in him.  And absolutely, God can bring him out of Babylon.  As far as judging him; I just wished to see more of him giving thanks to God for what all GOD has accomplished in him, that's all ;)  I certainly do not claim to be without sin either ;) ;)

Let me know what you find out about Gen 6 if and when you find it out... 8)
blessings,
Susan 
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Arthyron

  • Guest
Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 11:09:45 PM »

This may be off base slightly but I have always found it incredible that snakes, serpents, dragons, etc. seem to pop up in the symbolism of the "deities" in almost all cultures. It is almost as if Satan himself was having a good laugh over how he got to the top of the food chain over our temporal flesh, all over the world.

As far as geopolitical theories and all go I no longer have much interest in the subject, at one time I was a political maniac who thought I had the answers or at least the right ideology, I now have complete faith in God's plan and purpose for His Spiritual Sons and Daughters. He is using this disposable flesh to suit a grand design that completes us incorruptable and immortal, the web and flow of earthly nations is but one small part of that.

The spiritual battle within is the much larger part!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

That's an interesting point you bring up.  It's one that Dr. Heiser picked up on as well.  Many of the places the Israelites warred against early on were places in some way associated with "serpents" or "serpentine" things.  There seems to be some sort of correlation between the places the Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim resided and "serpentine" in particular.  I can't remember which city, exactly (I think it might have been Bashan), but one of the names it was known by was "place of the serpent."  It's part of the evidence that a lot of the Old Testament wars were perhaps about more than just punishing the wicked people, but perhaps were spiritually motivated and involved, stamping out the influence and corruption of demonic presences and destroying those who served them.  It really does seem to make sense/fall together, seems very cohesive, and there also seems to be a deeper, spiritual component to it all as well.  It's as if it really emphasizes the "enmity" between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent on a spiritual level.  It's also interesting to note that the word commonly translated as "serpent" in the Old Testament (I believe it was..."nachash") can also refer to "shining" or "one who shines."  Coincidence?  I think not. ;)

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Hi Athyron,
I totally agree that Dr. Heiser is a great Hebrew Authority and a great help in understanding the Old Testament.  I too am particularly interested in the Nephelim of Gen. 6 too; I may have some of his books if he has written about them particularly...(I have alot of books on the Gen 6 issue Wink...I'll check and see.  (Yes, I would love to hear Ray elaborate on this topic a bit more too; maybe someday, b/c I too am concerned about that Jude scripture and how it relates to Gen. 6?)  I had to put the subject down for awhile b/c I was just not sure of the truth about it.   

I love the Hebrew  language that our original bibles were translated from; thus HEBREWROOTS98 (I also used to be Messsianic where I learned and kept all of the OT Appointed Feasts and Festivals...shadows and foreshadows.)

Yes, God has not (yet? ever?) called the Hebrew Scholar out of Babylon, but he has certainly been blessed by God for HIM to give this unique info and history to him.; I am sure that he has done well to expose those who claim to interpret the OT correctly; that is alot of hard and endless work.  I am not at all discounting that in him.  And absolutely, God can bring him out of Babylon.  As far as judging him; I just wished to see more of him giving thanks to God for what all GOD has accomplished in him, that's all Wink  I certainly do not claim to be without sin either Wink Wink

Let me know what you find out about Gen 6 if and when you find it out... Cool
blessings,
Susan

It seems you are correct in at least that he is not yet out of Babylon (as his bio claims he attends a Reformed church, which may or may not signify such a thing), but who knows.  We can of course pray for him. 

But yes, a fascinating topic, one of I have done a great deal of study on (which is why I'm so emphatic, so please forgive my enthusiasm) as well.  I look forward to the day when the Lord reveals the truth of the matter to us all. :)
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jER

  • Guest
Re: The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2008, 02:51:52 AM »

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


Perhaps, "I will build a tower" of mere Babel, and be given to worship obelisk’s. Such that I will make a name for myself…sorry, you may delete this, as with my previous quote in this thread – neither is significant, but comes from the Spirit within…

Thank you for letting me participate on this forum;  past, present and future (?), and with those of like mind who endure to the end in His Truth.

 I will continue in His footsteps…Love to ALL!
 And, to Love ALL IS of The Father.

Your friend in Christ - JER
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