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The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory

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Arthyron:

--- Quote from: Kat on December 31, 2007, 11:52:29 AM ---
Hi Arthyron,

You speculate that in Deu 32:8 that sons of God, is speaking of angels. 

Deu 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

But notice that it has already stated "borders of the peoples" not angels.
--- End quote ---

Right, and I allowed for that reading of the Scriptures in my interpretation.  I fully believe he divided the borders of the people for the purposes of splitting them into distinct nations.  But the point of interest/contention/discussion is by what measure he divided them.  Even the commentary you quoted below renders the phrase "according to the number of the angels of God."  It also pointed out that the wording was very peculiar. Also, like I said, all my studies have taught that the term "Sons of God" in the Old Testament is almost always a euphemism for "angels," rather than men.  So what I'm wondering is why God chose to divide them up according to the number of these celestial beings (if that's the right interpretation) rather than some other measure. 

What I'm saying is that it seems to make more sense if you consider all the other passages I mentioned (Daniel, the other passages in Deuteronomy, etc, and the scope of all the wars and such in the Old Testament as a whole) if this passage is saying that the nations were divided up according to the number of these "angels," and that they were given principality or dominion over these lands.  Because remember, there is that single passage, but there are all the other passages about how God chose Israel as His portion, his inheritance.  Why didn't he choose all the other nations (since the whole world is His anyway)?  If God chooses Israel as His allotment, then to whom did the other nations belong to (if anyone)?  Who or what (if anything) was placed over them? That's what I'm trying to discern here, in light of the context of Daniel and the other passages mentioned.


--- Quote from: Arcturus on December 31, 2007, 12:04:51 PM ---While I was in Babylon I came accross teachings that authorised provincial, geographical and article (various objects )  powers to Demons.

For me this takes the impact off the fact that God is the Principle Sovereign power and not Satan or his demons. It is God who makes evil and God has made Satan. This is NOT taught by Babylon and neither is it understood, percieved or accepted. It is God who has made the smith (Ray Smith ;D ) to blow on the coals,  and the waster for God's Plan and Purpose. What I am saying is that the references to evil and demonology are vast in the attire of what is called spiritual illumination in Babylon. The references to God and His Sovereignty are nill.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

--- End quote ---

Certainly true.  And it's not like this is a life or death matter or anything, I'm just trying to make sense of a somewhat elusive and vague but very important event in the world's history.  Those passages really just seemed to stick out to me.


--- Quote ---I know traditionally it is taught that Gabriel is an "archangel" but traditions (as we know) are not always correct.

I also don't think there is any scriptural proof for there being "fallen angels"....demons are spirit...not necessarily "beings"....to take this passage and conjour up ideas of demon beings ruling over lands doesn't seem credible to me.

Again, this is just how I see it...I'm open to criticism/comments...it's all about learning.

Peace,
Diana
--- End quote ---

That's a very unusual but very interesting take on the issue, Diana.  I hadn't heard that interpretation before, and much of what you said does make sense and carry much weight.  However thing that makes me doubt it is the terminology used regarding "Michael" and "prince/head."  Later on in Daniel 12 it talks of how Michael the prince will arise and such.  It seems to be speaking of a time in the future, seemingly beyond the extent of a human lifespan.  So if the passage in Daniel is referring to a mere man named Michael, rather than some sort of celestial being, the man would likely have to live abnormally long or be resurrected for this time when he would "arise" or something, assuming it's speaking of some actual event, rather than a spiritual concept (such as someone of the same spirit as the man Michael, etc).

Also, if they are mere men, it seems that they are individuals making war (no mention is given of their armies).  Now it could be that their armies are "understood" when they refer to themselves, of course, but it doesn't seem to be that way to me, at least.  It seems to be Gabriel + Michael vs. Prince of Persia + Prince of Greece.  And then there's the matter in verse 21 of Daniel 10 where it says no one supports Gabriel but Michael.  That's also a curious passage I'm not sure how exactly to take.

It is rather odd, though, that there would be a "Gabriel and Michael" as men in the Old Testament, and then a "Gabriel and Michael" as angles in the New Testament, assuming your view is correct.  If that's the case then there's probably some deeper spiritual meaning behind it, which is why I keep saying I'd like Ray to study this sometime.


--- Quote ---Arthyron,
As for the issue of 'sons of God and 'daughters of men/sons of men, and how the angels relate with this..., I do not know.  I do have alot of materials related to the Nephilim and sons of God, but, as of yet,I have not been able to sort it all out yet.  I will one of these days hopefully., as I am very intrigued by this topic. 
--- End quote ---

Yeah, they've always been a subject that intrigued me since I ran across the passage in Genesis 6 when I was younger.  Ray doesn't seem to think that the Nephilim are related to the demonic in any way ( http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#nephilum ), but it doesn't seem that Ray has done a whole lot of research on that particular issue (which doesn't surprise me, as it's not a very important issue and most people haven't even heard of it or know that it's in the Bible to begin with), since the term "Nephilim" (Hebrew: נפלים) is one that seems to have a variety of interpretations and is hard to pin down (which is why I was drawn to Heiser's work, because he explored all these interpretations and what they would imply, as well as giving his opinion on the word itself as a Hebrew scholar).

Scripture is quite clear that angels in heaven do not marry nor are given in marriage (Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25), but it's odd that Christ mentioned "angels in heaven" rather than merely angels.  Then there's another peculiar passage in Jude:

Jude 1:5-7
"5and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;

6messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."

Some people believe that this passage is referring to the events of Genesis 6.  But yeah, again, not a particularly "important" topic, but one I've found fascinating. 


--- Quote ---After browsing the web site of Dr Heisers', he has a very impressive resume' of the different number of learning institutions that he has learned and taught at.  I am also amazed that he has authored  such a tremendous amount of books; his books  are all topics of great interest to me... mostly all of it dealing with the Old Testament and ancient times issues.  He is a very accomplished scholar and very good at what he has done, however, I get the impression that he too is still in Babylon and that he is a very strong CHRISTIAN; that bothers me for a man of his caliber.  I mean, he does a great job at interpretting the old testament, but, I hear very little in comparison to the New Testament interpretations.  Also, I do not hear any of him giving thanks to God for making him into who he is and for giving him the knowledge that he has; infact, I see that he might even have a bit of pride for being as accomplished as he has become...as an idol in his heart of??  I know that God has not called this guy to the entire truths, but wouldn't it be great for YOU, ARTHYRON, to teach him of these ultimate biblical truths Shocked??
--- End quote ---

Yeah, I'm not sure about what he believes regarding the New Testament and all the issues that the people at BT focus on.  He is a Hebrew scholar, after all, so he tends to focus on the part of the Bible written in Hebrew academically.  I don't know what his views are on the New Testament, only that he proclaims his faith in Christ (which of course doesn't necessarily mean anything).  But even if he is still in Babylon, it doesn't mean that what he says is automatically without merit, when it comes to technical issues of the meaning of Hebrew words. 

As for giving thanks to God and issues of pride, I don't believe it's our place to judge him on the matter.  It very well may be the case, but ultimately only God knows, and again, the Lord can work through all people, even those of us who sin. ;)  I'm a firm proponent of the passage in 1 Thessalonians that says to test everything and hold on to the good.  I feel that there is at least some truth in what Dr. Heiser has studied even if he himself has not yet come to the Truth. He has done a lot of work in exposing false teachers and false teachings regarding Scripture (particularly a popular author named Zecharia Sitchin).

That would be amazing if the Lord allowed me to have an impact on his life like that and I pray the the Lord gives me or someone else who has the truth in them the opportunity. 

hillsbororiver:
This may be off base slightly but I have always found it incredible that snakes, serpents, dragons, etc. seem to pop up in the symbolism of the "deities" in almost all cultures. It is almost as if Satan himself was having a good laugh over how he got to the top of the food chain over our temporal flesh, all over the world.

As far as geopolitical theories and all go I no longer have much interest in the subject, at one time I was a political maniac who thought I had the answers or at least the right ideology, I now have complete faith in God's plan and purpose for His Spiritual Sons and Daughters. He is using this disposable flesh to suit a grand design that completes us incorruptable and immortal, the web and flow of earthly nations is but one small part of that.

The spiritual battle within is the much larger part!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

hebrewroots98:
Hi Athyron,
I totally agree that Dr. Heiser is a great Hebrew Authority and a great help in understanding the Old Testament.  I too am particularly interested in the Nephelim of Gen. 6 too; I may have some of his books if he has written about them particularly...(I have alot of books on the Gen 6 issue ;)...I'll check and see.  (Yes, I would love to hear Ray elaborate on this topic a bit more too; maybe someday, b/c I too am concerned about that Jude scripture and how it relates to Gen. 6?)  I had to put the subject down for awhile b/c I was just not sure of the truth about it.   

I love the Hebrew  language that our original bibles were translated from; thus HEBREWROOTS98 (I also used to be Messsianic where I learned and kept all of the OT Appointed Feasts and Festivals...shadows and foreshadows.)

Yes, God has not (yet? ever?) called the Hebrew Scholar out of Babylon, but he has certainly been blessed by God for HIM to give this unique info and history to him.; I am sure that he has done well to expose those who claim to interpret the OT correctly; that is alot of hard and endless work.  I am not at all discounting that in him.  And absolutely, God can bring him out of Babylon.  As far as judging him; I just wished to see more of him giving thanks to God for what all GOD has accomplished in him, that's all ;)  I certainly do not claim to be without sin either ;) ;)

Let me know what you find out about Gen 6 if and when you find it out... 8)
blessings,
Susan 

Arthyron:

--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on January 02, 2008, 06:15:04 PM ---This may be off base slightly but I have always found it incredible that snakes, serpents, dragons, etc. seem to pop up in the symbolism of the "deities" in almost all cultures. It is almost as if Satan himself was having a good laugh over how he got to the top of the food chain over our temporal flesh, all over the world.

As far as geopolitical theories and all go I no longer have much interest in the subject, at one time I was a political maniac who thought I had the answers or at least the right ideology, I now have complete faith in God's plan and purpose for His Spiritual Sons and Daughters. He is using this disposable flesh to suit a grand design that completes us incorruptable and immortal, the web and flow of earthly nations is but one small part of that.

The spiritual battle within is the much larger part!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

--- End quote ---

That's an interesting point you bring up.  It's one that Dr. Heiser picked up on as well.  Many of the places the Israelites warred against early on were places in some way associated with "serpents" or "serpentine" things.  There seems to be some sort of correlation between the places the Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim resided and "serpentine" in particular.  I can't remember which city, exactly (I think it might have been Bashan), but one of the names it was known by was "place of the serpent."  It's part of the evidence that a lot of the Old Testament wars were perhaps about more than just punishing the wicked people, but perhaps were spiritually motivated and involved, stamping out the influence and corruption of demonic presences and destroying those who served them.  It really does seem to make sense/fall together, seems very cohesive, and there also seems to be a deeper, spiritual component to it all as well.  It's as if it really emphasizes the "enmity" between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent on a spiritual level.  It's also interesting to note that the word commonly translated as "serpent" in the Old Testament (I believe it was..."nachash") can also refer to "shining" or "one who shines."  Coincidence?  I think not. ;)


--- Quote ---Hi Athyron,
I totally agree that Dr. Heiser is a great Hebrew Authority and a great help in understanding the Old Testament.  I too am particularly interested in the Nephelim of Gen. 6 too; I may have some of his books if he has written about them particularly...(I have alot of books on the Gen 6 issue Wink...I'll check and see.  (Yes, I would love to hear Ray elaborate on this topic a bit more too; maybe someday, b/c I too am concerned about that Jude scripture and how it relates to Gen. 6?)  I had to put the subject down for awhile b/c I was just not sure of the truth about it.   

I love the Hebrew  language that our original bibles were translated from; thus HEBREWROOTS98 (I also used to be Messsianic where I learned and kept all of the OT Appointed Feasts and Festivals...shadows and foreshadows.)

Yes, God has not (yet? ever?) called the Hebrew Scholar out of Babylon, but he has certainly been blessed by God for HIM to give this unique info and history to him.; I am sure that he has done well to expose those who claim to interpret the OT correctly; that is alot of hard and endless work.  I am not at all discounting that in him.  And absolutely, God can bring him out of Babylon.  As far as judging him; I just wished to see more of him giving thanks to God for what all GOD has accomplished in him, that's all Wink  I certainly do not claim to be without sin either Wink Wink

Let me know what you find out about Gen 6 if and when you find it out... Cool
blessings,
Susan
--- End quote ---

It seems you are correct in at least that he is not yet out of Babylon (as his bio claims he attends a Reformed church, which may or may not signify such a thing), but who knows.  We can of course pray for him. 

But yes, a fascinating topic, one of I have done a great deal of study on (which is why I'm so emphatic, so please forgive my enthusiasm) as well.  I look forward to the day when the Lord reveals the truth of the matter to us all. :)

jER:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Perhaps, "I will build a tower" of mere Babel, and be given to worship obelisk’s. Such that I will make a name for myself…sorry, you may delete this, as with my previous quote in this thread – neither is significant, but comes from the Spirit within…

Thank you for letting me participate on this forum;  past, present and future (?), and with those of like mind who endure to the end in His Truth.

 I will continue in His footsteps…Love to ALL!
 And, to Love ALL IS of The Father.

Your friend in Christ - JER

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