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The Prince of Persia and the Divine Council Theory

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dewey:
hey folks , here is what works for me, it is really quite simple. IN THE NAME OF JEASUS GET BE
HIND ME satin. try it you may be pleasntly suprised.  THANK YOU FATHER .       dewey                           

Arthyron:

--- Quote from: hebrewroots98 on December 30, 2007, 12:11:35 PM ---Hi Athyron,
The simple of it (imo) is that certain demons have the authority to rule and oppress over certain places/principalities in the earth.  By just observing w/ ones' physical eyes we can see how those demonic spirits operate; (the spirit of murder, death, suicide, as well as terrorism coming from the Muslum (spirit) part of the world; the spirit of greed,materialism, lying, cheating,  and pride/arrogance in the USA; the spirit of povery in the 3rd world countries; etc... ( B/c of this, I believe that the Elect of God will also reside over certain areas/prinicpalities of the world when it comes to assisting Christ in  judging the world of their sins and in teaching them of righteousness.  Thus, Ephesians 6 supports this.  These princes are the leaders/strong holds of Persia as you stated from the Book of Daniel.  I am not sure how humans can oppose angels in this life, but, in the life to come, the elect will be helping to judge even these beings, so I am thinking that God will put a limit on their abilities at that time; (not now), thus, we then will oppose the angels.  Absolutely these are the spiritual forces that we cannot see.  But, in the light of the spirit of this topic, with Christ, all things are possible; and with Christ in us, we are HIs representives while here, so we do have HIS authority in us to cast down any spirits that come against the truth, and those spirits are made to obey Christ and leave us when commanded to.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that seems to be what I got out of it.  It's why I brought up Dr. Heiser, because he has some very compelling Scriptural evidence to show how these spiritual powers (if they be spirit in nature) assumed power, and I haven't seen Ray or anyone else here do a study on it (though it seems when Ray touches on things close to this, they seem to line up pretty well).

There seems to be an indication possibly in Deuteronomy.  Coming just out of the story of the tower of Babel when the nations were made into nations and scattered, there's a very curious passage in Deuteronomy 32:8:

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
       when he divided all mankind,
       he set up boundaries for the peoples
       according to the number of the sons of Israel. [c]

Notice the footnote indicator there, here's what the footnote says:

Deuteronomy 32:8 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint)  sons of God

If you replace "according to the number of the sons of Israel" with "according to the number of the sons of God," a huge set of implications comes up with it.  Firstly, I think that "sons of God" is the proper translation because it seems to be the older one, and furthermore it makes more sense.  How could and why would God (aside from peering into the future) divide up the scattered nations according to the number of the sons of Israel, especially because Israel wouldn't come to be a nation until much later?  It makes more sense if He were to divide it according to the number of the sons of God.  Now from what I've learned, the term "sons of God" (Hebrew b'nei elohim, בני האלהים) is almost always a euphemism for angels or those directly created by God (Adam was a "son of God" as was Christ and so are we when the Lord chooses to remake us). 

Later in the passage, it refers to the fact that God chose Israel as "His portion."  If He chose it as his portion, then what of the other nations that are not "His portion?" I think that the other nations (due to their wickedness as mentioned in verse 5 and later in verse 17) were given over (as God gives someone over to their sins) to be ruled/punished by these other spiritual forces, or perhaps God simply didn't watch over them as He did Israel and these forces took over.  But the fact that "sons of God" is used in the Dead Sea Scrolls in verse 8 makes me really wonder.  It's clear only a few verses later in verse 17 that the other nations had taken up to worshiping demons and other false gods (as Jeshrun started forsook God and started worshiping "foreign" gods that had only "recently" come about), so do you think I'm too off-base with this idea?

I think it makes sense of a lot of things.  Consider in the passage I mentioned earlier in Daniel where it talks of the "Prince of Persia" and the like.  Well oddly enough the same term ("prince" or "head") is attributed to the angel Michael (whom Ray has entertained the possibility could be another name for Christ).  He referred to as a "prince" or "head" in both that passage and another passage (Daniel 12:1), only Michael is referred to as the "great head" rather than merely the "head."

So when you survey all of this and add it together, it seems that these powers that Gabriel spoke of in Daniel 11 were either placed there by God or took over after God forsook those nations and instituted themselves as rulers and in some cases gods, as people seemed to be worshiping them and making sacrifices to them.  But the terminology (sons of God, princes, heads, etc) also seems to link them to some sort of kinship with Michael, despite that Michael seems to be above them in some way. 

So this is basically the Divine Council theory boiled down, that there were other spiritual beings (be they angels, archangels, what have you) that God counted as part of His family (hence "sons of God") that either turned and opposed Him, or were placed in those positions by God and then opposed Him after being exalted and worshiped by men.  It gives an explanation as to what these "princes" or "heads" are, why they're in power, where demons came from (since Scripture doesn't explicitly tell us where they came from or why they exist to my knowledge) and a host of other unexplained instances. 

Another thing it explains is a lot of the wars and battles in the Old Testament.  One of the things I encounter in talking with non-believers is they have difficulty believing that God is good despite ordering the slaughter of various nations (despite the evidence that such nations sacrificed their children to Moloch, etc) and such.  If you take into account this idea that I find very reasonable, all of the wars and conflict in the Old Testament seem to make sense.  They were essentially a spiritual turf war, in which those who served God battled with those who served these "princes" or "heads" (whether they were consciously aware of it or not).  Sometimes God would lead the Israelites into battle and grant them victory over these other wicked nations, and sometimes when Israel herself grew wicked, he would allow them to be defeated or worse taken into captivity by these wicked nations.  If you look on a map where Israel went in and slaughtered everyone or had great military victories, and you look at a map where servants of these false gods (and oddly enough descendants of the Nephilim/Rephaim/Anakim/etc, but that's another matter which Ray has only briefly touched on that I'd like to see a study of) lived, the two almost directly overlap.  It's almost as if God was using Israel to take back the land from the servants of these allegedly spiritual principalities/powers.


--- Quote ---I do believe that in the OT that alot of the fallen angels became the pagan gods of the OT and even in the Mythology of that time (saturn, baal, janice, mythra, zues,and many, many others) and  exactly where Dr. Heiser gets his theory from.   I have not read this Divine Council.  As to how to pray, God is in control of those forces as well, so we can pray for HIS guidance and HIS will in dealing or not dealing with these dark spiritual forces.  God has put people in certain high places (as Presidents, Kings, rulers,) and for HIS reasons.  He can use them for building up a country or for destroying a country...it's all in HIS design and for HIS purposes...(but, there are always the evil forces in the midst waiting to do their damnable deeds to kill, steal,a nd destroy.... these demons manisfest and work through these vessles (these people!)
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that's a belief I've had for quite some time, and one shared by C.S. Lewis.  Another interesting factoid was that C.S. Lewis also believed that God would save everyone.  His conversion came around age 35 from atheism to theism, then from theism to Christianity.  Being a scholar at Oxford alongside his friend J.R.R. Tolkien, he studied the Scriptures in their original languages (since literature, especially ancient Greek, was his forte).  Interesting that even back then when so few people had the truth of Scripture, and the "church" had such a strangle hold on everything, he held such a view fairly openly and is still widely regarded as one of the most important Christian authors of the last century by virtually everyone. 

But yeah, if there is any truth to what I've learned from the Scriptures, this theory that you and I share would make perfect sense.  I'd definitely like to see Ray do a study on this sometime. It definitely is a possible explanation for why demons/fallen angels exist in the first place.


--- Quote ---I hope that I did'nt muddy the waters even more, lol! ;)  godd post btw!
blessings,
Susan

--- End quote ---

Not at all, good to see there are other Bible Truths people who think it's a viable theory.


--- Quote ---I have heard of Dr.Heisner on the talk show Coast to Coast, as well as he is a guest speaker at the Roswell UFO annual get togethers quite often, (which is only about 2 hrs from where I live,.) though I have never spoken with him in person.  I am impressed with this Dr.'s educational background, soemthing that I would love to study.  His websites are very interesting, and long Wink

As I was saying about these demons that rule over certain places, I have told my dad (who is into worrying about where our country is headed,) that God sometimes uses our enemies (from other countries in this case) to take down a sinful country, in order to humble them and get them to turn back to HIM....so, even if my dad did get a group together to protest an issue, if it was Gods'will that this country does not prosper, then all his protesting will do no good in the end! Wink
--- End quote ---

Yeah, I have a dvd he made with several lectures/studies he's given on the topic (I was impressed that he didn't charge anything for the dvd's).  He also has some videos up on google video too.  He doesn't seem to be afraid of questioning and criticizing the common teaching regarding that whole concept, and so far all I've seen of what he has written seems to be spiritually (and rationally) sound.  He's writing a book currently about the whole theory and a few other topics, I'm definitely interested in checking that out when it's done (he's about 2/3 of the way finished with it).


--- Quote ---From the passage you quoted in Daniel  I can only imagine that the battles must be increasing because of the increase in evil in the world today. Right now we are to study and show ourselves approved....there is enough righteous and tru information to contemplate.  The next age will bring judgement to the wicked and put evil underfoot.

As far as the gods being named from these pricipalities...sure but remember man can make "anything" a god. If a martian came to tennesee and looked Batman Building down town they would think we worshipped electric towers...it looks just like one. The silly world thinks it is in control of everything and therefore is kept busy naming and explaining and worshiping their idols. .Divine Council Roll Eyes  Tongue

Ecc 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Mat 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, it's possible that evil is increasing, though sometimes I wonder with some of the atrocities and widespread Godlessness in the history of our planet.  Certainly the potential for evil to have a larger impact is greater in today's world (with the internet and global politics and the like), but I don't know about the total amount of evil being more or less, it certainly seems as though there is more.  I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Divine Council theory as an idol of the heart, though, it's just a name for a particular interpretation of Scripture.  Hopefully my shortened explanation of it will be food for thought, or at least food for further discussion. ;)

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions everyone. :)

Kat:

Hi Arthyron,

You speculate that in Deu 32:8 that sons of God, is speaking of angels. 

Deu 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

But notice that it has already stated "borders of the peoples" not angels. 


--- Quote --- How could and why would God (aside from peering into the future) divide up the scattered nations according to the number of the sons of Israel, especially because Israel wouldn't come to be a nation until much later?
--- End quote ---

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

I know these are just speculations you have, from the sources you have read.   Your souce is interesting, but reading through the commentaries, they seem to stick with the idea this is speaking of people on earth.

Clarke- the earth was very early divided in consequence of a Divine command, and probably by lot, (see Act_17:26); and as Africa is called the land of Ham, (Psa_78:51; Psa_105:23, Psa_105:27; Psa_106:22), probably that country fell to him and to his descendants, at the same time that Europe fell to Japheth, and Asia to Shem, with a particular reserve of Palestine to be the Lord’s portion, for some one peculiar people. 
He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel - The Septuagint is very curious, Εστησεν ὁρια εθνων κατα αριθμον αγγελων του Θεου. “He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.” The meaning of the passage seems to be, that when God divided the earth among mankind, he reserved twelve lots, according to the number of the sons of Jacob, which he was now about to give to their descendants, according to his promise.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Deborah-Leigh:
While I was in Babylon I came accross teachings that authorised provincial, geographical and article (various objects )  powers to Demons.

For me this takes the impact off the fact that God is the Principle Sovereign power and not Satan or his demons. It is God who makes evil and God has made Satan. This is NOT taught by Babylon and neither is it understood, percieved or accepted. It is God who has made the smith (Ray Smith ;D ) to blow on the coals,  and the waster for God's Plan and Purpose. What I am saying is that the references to evil and demonology are vast in the attire of what is called spiritual illumination in Babylon. The references to God and His Sovereignty are nill.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

skydreamers:
Hi everyone,

Thought I'd throw out something that I see in all of this.  It's just my opinion of course but I'm not entirely convinced that this "Gabriel" of Daniel is necessarily a "celestial" being.  I'm not saying he is or he isn't, but I am saying that from the passages in Daniel it's not entirely clear, at least not to me.

The name Gabriel actually means "man of God" and in this verse we see him being called a "man":

yes, while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, touched me in my severe exhaustion, about the time of the evening sacrifice.
Daniel 9:21

and Daniel states that he had seen this "man" in his previous vision....

so is it not possible that the first time Daniel sees Gabriel it is in a vision which is like a dream....then in Daniel 9 God sends the actual "man" Gabriel to explain the vision....The first time Daniel is clearly seeing a vision, the second time he is praying when Gabriel shows up.  So it seems possible to me that Daniel was given a prior vision of Gabriel a human messenger (since not all messengers are necessarily celestial) who was to come to him in person.

This is similar to what happened to Saul/Paul who saw Ananias in a vision before he came to heal him of his blindness.

And the Lord said to him (to Ananias), Arise and go into the street which is called Straight and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus. For behold, he is praying, and has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him so that he might receive his sight.
Acts 9:11-12

So here we have a case of Paul being given a prior vision of someone who was sent from the Lord to heal him of his blindness.

In Daniel 10 we see Daniel in a deep vision again, and then...Gabriel shows up and touches him setting him up on his knees and thus arousing him out of the deep sleep (vision). 

Then he said to me, Do not fear, Daniel; for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and to chasten yourself before your God, your words were heard. And I have come for your words. But the ruler of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days. But lo, Michael, one of the chief rulers, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to make you understand what shall happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is yet for many days.
Daniel 10:12-14


Gabriel doesn't make clear where he has come from and he certainly doesn't say he has come from some "celestial" dimension/place.  And in this case Michael could also be referring to a human chief ruler...the name Michael meaning "who is as God?".

[this is not to rule out that these "persons" point to or are types of spiritual figures...like Michael representing Jesus..."]

So it seems plausible to me that a "man of God" (Gabriel) was appointed by God to go to Daniel to give him the words/message of God.  And so, the ruler of the kingdom of Persia is not necessarily some demon being at all, but exactly that...the ruler of the kingdom of Persia...a "human" ruler...[this is not to rule out that these events/people "represent" spiritual" events or aspects within our lives...]

In Daniel's vision (Dan8) we have a reference to one standing before Daniel with the "appearance" of a man and with a man's voice telling Gabriel to explain to Daniel...

so in my mind, we have two characters in play...one with the "appearance" of a man and one called a "man"....the two are not necessarily the same "person"...

I know traditionally it is taught that Gabriel is an "archangel" but traditions (as we know) are not always correct. 

I also don't think there is any scriptural proof for there being "fallen angels"....demons are spirit...not necessarily "beings"....to take this passage and conjour up ideas of demon beings ruling over lands doesn't seem credible to me.

Again, this is just how I see it...I'm open to criticism/comments...it's all about learning.

Peace,
Diana

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