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[Matt]

Romans 5:18  Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all (ALL) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all (Some?) men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many (ALL) were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many (Not ALL?) will be made righteous.

Today, I had someone try and show me that these verses prove that all will not be saved. 
All means all, right?  I want to hit my head on the wall!! 
Why don’t they get it? 
I am very frustrated, more so because I know the answer to the question.
I am very glad that I have been found worthy enough to understand the truth

Matt

[gmik]

I have seen that same skewed logic in the margins of a bible!!  Yes, I even showed it to someone at a conference.  It is unbelievable.  The margin said, "all can't mean all because that would mean everyone would be saved, and we know the bible doesn't teach that!"  I was using a "spirit-filled" version at the time.

Matthew, yes, thank God we are found worthy to SEE this!

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

Ray had a Bible study on just this subject, here is excerpts form the transcript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.msg45175.html#msg45175 ---

Now let me show you that technically they are right about the word.  Let’s prove that, where it says “all should be saved,”  why do they say that doesn’t mean all?  Because they despise the Word of God, that’s why.  They despise the Word of God.  They don’t say that this word never means all or complete or every or everyone.  They only say it never means that when it’s talking about salvation.  Why?  Because they despise the Word of God.  One day we are going to understand that, it’s only when it comes to salvation specifically and particularly.  Not that there are other occasions that they know it doesn’t mean all, because that’s their proof to say that it doesn’t mean all when it’s talking about salvation.  But the reason that they do that is they despise the Word of God and they don’t want everybody to be saved.  They’re vengeful and hateful.  There are people that have hurt them in their lives and they want those people to go to hell. 
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Why isn’t there a Greek word like all, that always does mean all and every, without exception?  Why does this Greek word have that loop hole in it?  Why didn’t God have at least one word that means all - every - absolutely bar none, then use it.  Then the theologians wouldn’t have an excuse to blaspheme God and say He is not going to save everybody, but torture most of them in hell.  Why didn’t God provide such a word?  Because if He did, how would Satan deceive the whole world?
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Luke 19:10  For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.

It doesn’t say He came to save ‘all’ that was lost, does it.  It doesn’t have to.  If they are lost, he’s going to seek them and find them.  They say, ‘but not all.’  No, you are perverting the scriptures. 
In other words, here’s some people that are lose, He’s going to seek and save them, right.  Why?  Because He said so.  Now over here are some people that are lost, He will not save them, right?  No, you are making a liar out of the scriptures.  These people over here are lost, that’s the only qualification we are looking for here.  Are you lost?  Yes.  Then Christ is going to come and save you.  You see how simple scripture is.  Who would have ever used that scripture to prove that all humanity will be saved?  There it is.  What are the qualifications to be saved?  You have to be lost.  We’re all lost.  It’s apollumi - destroyed, perished, lost, you see.  If you fit that category, and we all do, guess what?  Christ came to save you! 

Here if you would have put in the word ‘all,’ they would fight you on it.  Because they would say, ‘He came to save all and all means  many that are lost.’  The word isn’t there and because the word isn’t there. It absolutely has to mean all.  Because there is no qualifier - all lost or many lost?  No, it’s just ‘lost’ there.  That’s the only qualification - lost.  Can you see it?
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1Cor 15:28  And when all things have been subjected unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subjected to Him that did subject all things unto Him, that God may BE all.....IN all.

Who would think that this proves that Christ Himself would be subject unto the Father, “that God may be all in all.”  How does that prove all human are going to be saved.  We have the same word ‘all’ that the word ‘pas.’  Here’s why, you can’t say that the first ‘all’ means absolutely all, but the next ‘all,’ these right together, means something totally different, you can’t do that.  God does not speak in such convoluted deceitful ways in His word, if you say the second ‘all,’ that’s all humanity doesn’t mean all.  Then you have to also conclude that when God says, “that He may be all,” that God Himself is not all.  Who would suggest that God is not all, that He is lacking, He’s not all that He wants to be or whatever, only partly.  It’s nonsense.  Well whatever the all is, meaning that God is complete and that’s what it’s talking about, completeness, being made whole.  Like it says in Colossians, “we are made perfect in Christ” complete, we are complete in Him, mature, whole.  Whatever God is, is what He will be in.  That God may be all, that’s what He is, that’s not us now, God will be all.  Well if God is all and He is all, being all, be all, it’s the same thing He’s going to be in us.  It can’t be just in part, you can’t say God will be all in part of humanity, you can’t say that.  So even a simple verse like that, “Go… all in all” absolutely proves all humanity is included.
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Here is the audio links to the Bible study:
September 2, 2007 Does All mean All?
http://bible-truths.com/audio/09-02-07 Part 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/09-02-07 Part 2.mp3
Rays notes for this study: http://bible-truths.com/audio/HOW MUCH IS.doc

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gmik]

Thanks Kat.  Great reminder!

[Matt]

Thanks Kat!  This says just what I am feeling!
Too bad I must come here for my relief, there are not a whole lot of people out there who want to hear this stuff.
Good thing God will be ALL in ALL though, we won't have any miscommunication then !

Matt

[Samson]

Hello Matt,

                I thought this was an interesting post, it just so happens that in the past(approx 1 month ago), I read in another Universal Site that their are two different greek words rendered ALL, unfortunately I don't know specifically where that information was at this particular time, however I do remember the difference in the meaning of these two greek words, One of these greek words for ALL means EVERYONE and the other means ALL SORTS OF conveying not necessarily everyone, but all of a particular group out of everyone. The first meaning of ALL that I mention is the one meant in 1cor.15:22 and this applies to the other Scriptures we use to prove Universal Salvation for everyone. This greek word I refer to meaning literally everyone, if I remember correctly started with p(plesion or something like that), if I can find the exact info, I'll let you know. The reason for my bringing this up is because, I at one time had doubts about ALL referring to everyone, until viewing this information, this was the clincher. The same idea applies to the greek word AION, if the Bible writers wanted to mean Eternal or Endless, they would have used the greek word AIDIOS, instead of AION. Nice to read your post and may Christ be with you, SAmson.

[Matt]

Samson,
  Thank you!  Please let me know if you find anymore on that.  I am so excited that the Lord is finally growing me, though it is not as fast as I like, I am happy to be moving forward and also happy to be here among friends

Matt

[DuluthGA]

Hi all,

Here's a portion of a post I made on Sept 11 last year:

What delighted me this evening was Ray's recent audio which is related:  http://bible-truths.com/audio/09-02-07%20Part%201.mp3, "Does All Mean All?"

I'm going to paraphrase a small portion now in a very sketchy manner.  The audio is great...

Why doesn't the Greek word for 'all' [pas] mean ALL, absolutely, completely, ALL of the time, all inclusive, every, without exception?  If so it would be much easier to very plainly point to the scriptures that declare that God will save all His creation.  But sometimes in the Greek, 'all' means only 'just as many as' or some.  So you really cannot securely base this proclamation on the verses such as 1Tim 2:4 that contain the word 'all'... "Who will have ALL men to be saved"....  even though we know from context that it is so.... because the theologians are technically right about the word 'all' meaning both only some and all.

So how to "take them on" when they by the hundreds of thousands have been studying these things for two thousand years?  Ray provides lots of alternatives.  But further on this 'all' matter... Ray goes on...

To say that these blinded souls acknowledge that in other verses 'all' means 'all' when they want it to BUT NEVER when it comes to salvation... no, because they not only despise the Word of God but these people are vengeful and hurtful and they want certain people to go to hell.

Why did God do it this way?  Why, to make it easier and more plain, didn't God give one very strong word for the concept of a complete 'all'?  Then they wouldn't have an excuse to blaspheme God and say He's not going to save everyone and torture them forever in hell.  But why didn't God provide such a word?

"Because if He did... how would Satan deceive the whole world? [Rev 12:9]  How would these theologians be deceived if there were no room for deception?"

Ray cites:

Isa 28: 10, 13    For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
v. 13   But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Otherwise "they" wouldn't fall and be broken and snared and taken (captive)... in their own demented minds....

"But if you have a heart that doesn't think the rest of humanity is as good as you then there's room to pervert the scriptures, pervert one's mind and be easily deceived.... THAT'S WHY THERE ARE LOOPHOLES IN THE SCRIPTURES."

"That's the way the word of God is."

Ka-Pow!
Janice

[Deborah-Leigh]

An accurate post Janice!

Peace to you

Arcturus