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[leeney]

Now that I'm on the right track concerning holidays, let me ask you about wars/government.

  Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.  I always interpreted this to mean that you were to obey your authority (unless that authority contradicted God in some way).   Is this correct?

   What about voting?  Is this something we should do or something we stay away from?  Some people say voting is a civil duty, others say it shows you are giving your allegiance to your country rather than to God.  In my mind it was just choosing your leaders.  I mean, any group with 2 or more people, no matter what kind of a group it is, needs a leader/director, otherwise there's a good chance of chaos and nothing gets done.  So in voting we are merely choosing our director; I never saw it as showing allegiance to anything.

  And wars; The Commandment says thou shalt not murder.  I always interpreted that to be one on one---you don't go taking revenge for anything or trying to benefit in some way, by killing someone.  But what about country to country?  Should we have just let Hitler run his course?  And Sadam when he invaded Kuwait?  I'm sure the Iraqi War has many different opinions and emotions covering it, But when an innocent set of people are being abused, how can we not help?  Aren't there some things that must be defended?  And yes, many times there may be other ways to handle the problem than with war, but again, sometimes not.

  Thoughts?  Where does God stand with these things?  By the way, even after Moses came from the mountain with the 10 Commandments, wars were still fought afterward.  Does this tie in with my theory or am I way off base?

  leeney

[shibboleth]

Let's say you and a neighbor are fighting. Mean and cruel words are spoken and things escalate to the point on of you threatens the other with a gun. Neighbors are well aware of the fight, and start taking sides. Soon there is gunfire and the whole neighborhood is shooting and killing each other.
War is like this to me. A few government men decide to fight with their neighbors they are having a disagreement with. Most wars are terribly expensive in money, human lives, misery and pain. When a nation calls for war, many companies make a lot of money from the production of tanks, uniforms, guns, food rations, and other commodities necessary for war.
The more I think about Jesus telling us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek, the more I just can't support war. At least I can't support it for believers. I don't really know if I could just let someone walk into my home and not fight back, though. It's a question I have been plagued with and am still trying to sort out.

[eutychus]

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet

Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by.

[Becky]

Regarding fighting back if someone were to come into my home and threaten me... I'd have to consider how Jesus did not fight back when he was placed under arrest.. He did not fight back as they killed him either..
Should we follow his example here in our ownl lives??

[Kevin]

Im sorry, but if we are being honest here. If someone were to break into my home I would not let that person plunder my family and home. I would have to lay down my life for my family or that persons life. What greater love have a man than to lay down his life. Words are easy to say. But if something actually did happen could someone actually watch thier family are friends get killed. Im not saying that I would kill that person but I would use everything in my power to stop them. I hope these words dont offend anyone, but im just being honest here.
What if there was a burning building and there was a child in it. You knew that the building was gonna collapse and kill you. But you went in to save this childs life and the building falls in and kills you. Wouldnt that be killing. For you killed yourself knowing the building was gonna collapse.
I just pray that I am never put in a situation where I would have to possibly harm someone to the extent of killing that person.
What if one of you were being beat to death, would you want someone to step in and stop that person doing that to you. You could say as long as you dont hurt that other person. But unless you are put in that situation you wouldnt know.

[Becky]

Ray or Mike wrote something like that:  They said that if a woman was being raped, to step in and save her but then to not go to the courthouse and demand that the guy get the death penalty.  I agree with you Kevin.. I would want to protect my family.  This is definately a tough decision to make if it came your way.

[Kevin]

Becky it really wouldnt be a tough decision for me. Without a doubt I would do everything in my power to protect my family and friends. I just pray Im never put in that situation. If I am wrong in this, then only God could change my mind.

[lilitalienboi16]

This is a very tought decision.

However Jesus was an EXAMPLE for all of us who are to pick up our crosses and follow Him.

What did Jesus do? what WOULD Jesus do is the question?

For me i look at it like this; Since God is in complete and total controle, whatever happens is because He has allowed it.

SO then what are we to do?

All i can know is what scripture tell us.

Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by it.

Jesus never fought back.

[Kevin]

If someone tried to harm my family I wouldnt use a sword, I have a gun though :shock:
Jesus laid down his own life on his own. He did that that we may have life. If I choose to lay down my own life for my family so they may have life so be it.
Those that live by the sword shall die by it. Yes I live by the sword(the word of God) since I live by it I die(flesh) by it.
If someone tries to kill my family they shall reap what they sow.

[Steve Crook]

I've posted this before, but for those of you who havent seen this, here it goes.

ALL OF US would protect our families if possible, usually by any means necessary to get the job done. Now, if a person has Christ in them, Christ ALONE will keep you from doing what the beast, on it's thrown, will command be done.

The only thing we can do, as servants to our Father, is PRAY...PRAY...PRAY...that the Lord keep us from the evil that we could face. Without His Mercy, we would all do the worst of worst because we all are of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Fact is, we can talk all day but our beastly instincts will always take control in the heat of the moment. We can either BEG the Lord that we do not face those evils, or we don't have to do anything. For me, Ill pray.

Think about how us humans operate. Training. Practice.

I'm a soldier. I go to boot camp, place myself in various situations, train my senses to operate on a level that is responsive instantly to any given stimuli.

I'm a warrior. I train in martial arts and weapons. I train my body daily in order to be reactive instantly in any situation I am physically put in. THINKING about the situation is not fast enough. I must ALREADY KNOW the situation to react, and to react I must not THINK. I must take the most effective, shortest, route from the superior position, and deliver the most effecient blow within any given space, time, and distance. Remember being told we must strive for the prize AS IF as a FIGHTER preparing for a fight??(spiritual of course)

If your life is threatened, and you are of a sane mind, you will try to protect it by clawing, sratching, hitting, biting, kicking, etc., to save it. Anything to protect it. Add in family members and love, and well, you'll do a lot of things. That's your most BASIC REMEMBERED ANIMAL INSTINCT.

Christ, on the other hand, understood that every SINGLE breath he took was given from our Father. So, every situation is from our Father, and we are to "resist not evil".

Tell you what. I'll give you a small quiz, and it's easy. Ready?

Hold your breath and stop breathing. Go ahead, and take as long as you like. WILL YOURSELF to stop breathing and see if you can maintain your FREE WILL?

...
...
...
...
...

In case you just woke up from passing out, I've let you know where I've continued typing at. You can not will yourself to stop your life...naturally that is. Why? The Lord's Design and Will.

Same with a man slapping me. ALL THE SAME.

Easy to type and say, but without Christ in Steve Crook, I will never be able to de-throne the beast and do what is proper when evil is in my presence. I'll just continue to pray.

God Bless

[longhorn]

Break into my house and all bets are off...either they or me is going to die, that will not be an opportunity for me to preach the gospel, it is an opportunity to see if they can do harm to me before I cave their skull in with my 33 ounce aluminum bat.  Just being honest....

Longhorn

[Becky]

Steve,
that was lovely and i couldn't agree more!

[Karen]

I agree with your post Steve. Words well put. Truth in them all those words. ~Karen~

[gmik]

steve, becky, longhorn, I have to go along with you all. I will do what I can to protect those I love.  I agree we shouldn't wait till it happens. Pray now that you never are put in that situation, but walk it thru to play out your options. (I heard that from a pilot in training-go thru all scenarios in your mind). But I am talking now, safe and sound.  I'd like to say that I would turn the other cheek-who knows what strenght the Lord would do right at that very moment that I needed it.

 :lol: on another topic.  What is May 4 Day of Prayer about.  Is that some-thing the carnal Babylon is doing or is there any merit to it??  

I was a little surprised to hear that we shouldn't vote.  Take no interest then in leadership of our villages, towns, cities, states, country??  It is a bit like the Amish....we in the forum (our village) don't vote, don't put up decorations for holidays, don't celebrate birthdays, don't even actively evangelize.   That doesn't seem like a good witness and certainly wouldn't make people want to live like us.  Well, I have written long and not included any scripture.  I would love some direction-otherwise I will have to go and reread Mike and Ray! :lol:

[Joey Porter]

I think it could be a matter of what our intentions are.  If we are in some dreadful situation where ourselves or our family are in immediate danger, there may be a couple of different ways to handle it.  If we become filled with rage and hate, and take action against the attacker for the sole purpose of taking vengeance and doing harm, that would certainly be considered a sin, I would think.

But if it were a reaction to do whatever was quickest to defend, even with tentativeness, without hatred, I don't know if that would be considered a sin.  

Remember, as Mike and Ray always say, Jesus' words are spiritual.  "Turn the other cheek" probably doesn't mean to literally turn the other cheek any more than "take the plank out of your eye" means to literally take the plank out of your eye, or any more than "clean the inside of the dish" means to literally clean the inside of the dish.  It has more to do with what's in our heart - do we hate those who do us harm?  Do we say hateful words and have hateful thoughts toward those who persecute us?  Or do we pray for those who persecute us and do us harm?

As an example, if a man broke into your home and began physically assaulting your family, and you were to whack him on the head with a sledge hammer to subdue him, without malice or vengeance, but only in desperation to protect you family, and then turn him over to the authorities for proper prosecution and punishment.  It could even be considered for the man's own good.  I don't think any of us on this forum would want to take extreme vengeance or wish torment against a person like that.  We'd probably even pray for that person - AFTER we did what we had to do for the good of all involved.  But obviously someone like that is unstable and it would be for their own good to get whacked on the head and face corrective discipline.

Many times doctors break babies' arms or legs in desparation if the baby is somehow in danger of suffocating in the birth canal or being strangled by the cord.  So, I don't think commiting a physical injury against someone could always be considered a sin in all cases.

May God chasten me if I'm wrong about this.  It is a very difficult subject to ponder, and as many have accurately pointed out - we should always  pray that God will never, ever lead us into this kind of temptation.  But as it stands now, I know that there is just no way I could ever stand idly by and watch someone kidnap, torture, or kill a family member or friend - or anyone, for that matter.

[gmik]

Thanks Joey.

[bobf]

We are to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil under any condition whatsoever and instead to commit ourselves to Him who judges righteously.  And I hope that is what I would do.

Even in the case of trying to save a loved one, we have the example of Peter who tried to save Christ and Jesus rebuked Him with "all who take up the sword will die by the sword."

[Jwn47]

We are to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil under any condition whatsoever and instead to commit ourselves to Him who judges righteously.  And I hope that is what I would do.

Even in the case of trying to save a loved one, we have the example of Peter who tried to save Christ and Jesus rebuked Him with "all who take up the sword will die by the sword."

I have two questions.  If Jesus's words are spirtual why do we take these words literally?  Why did Peter have carry a sword?

John N

[Joey Porter]

Actually, the account of Peter has deep spiritual meaning.  Of course, the sword is the Word of God.  Peter used the sword to harm someone - he used the sword to cut off the ear of his enemy, just like many twist and wrongfully use the very Words of God to "cut off the ears" of those who listen, so that they can't hear the Truth of the gospel. But of course, Jesus healed the man's ear, just as He will someday do for all who have had their "ears to hear" cut off by those who wield the Word of God to harm others and try to control them.

[bobf]

We are to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil under any condition whatsoever and instead to commit ourselves to Him who judges righteously.  And I hope that is what I would do.

Even in the case of trying to save a loved one, we have the example of Peter who tried to save Christ and Jesus rebuked Him with "all who take up the sword will die by the sword."

I have two questions.  If Jesus's words are spirtual why do we take these words literally?  Why did Peter have carry a sword?

I guess because Peter just tried to literally cut off a man's ear off and Jesus literally told him not too.  I can certainly see the possibility of deeper spiritual meaning like Joey gave (above) but I also take Jesus words at face value.  Why do we take words like "love your enemies" or "for God so loved the world..." at face value?

EDIT.  After contemplating a little more, I don't take those words literally anyway.  I take Jesus words to mean that all who return evil for evil will die by the Word of God.

Why would Peter carry a sword?  Don't know for sure... utility or self defense.