bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Laws  (Read 9373 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rk12201960

  • Guest
Laws
« on: January 06, 2008, 11:21:25 AM »

                            EMAIL TO RAY

Laws
« on: Today at 10:23:06 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's compare Eve's sin with what John tells us are the three root CAUSES OF ALL SIN:

"Love not the world, neither the things are are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT IN HIM.  For [here's the reason why] ALL that is in the world, [1] the LUST OF THE FLESH, and [2] the LUST OF THE EYES, and [3] the PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).

How can these SINS apply to Adam and Eve when there were no commandments, no old covenant, nor new covenant, no LAWS at that time? If there were no LAWs, who would Adam and Eve be aware of SINS AT THAT. We can drive 100 miles per hour, it only become wrong if there is a LAW made saying the speed limit in 55, only then it becomes wrong to drive 100 miles per hour. Therefore, yes, Adam and Eve disobeyed GOD by eating of the tree, but I don't see how they can be accountable for LUST and PRIDE.

I wonder why GOD kicked them out of the Garden of Eden, paradise, if they were carnal minded already, why just not just have Adam worked, sweat out side of the Garden of Eden, why even have a Garden of Eden, if GOD didn't expect them to do good. Now I know GOD knows everything, and I also know GOD doesn't make mistakes and thought Adam and Eve could do good, but why not just have them on regular soil.

Please reply. thanks.


Dear Frieda:  Your assumptions that there were NO LAWS OR COMMANDMENTS from God in the book of Genesis or in the Garden are not true. Just because God does not elaborate as to when and to whom which particular commandments were given is no proof that they were NOT given.  When Paul speak of "THE" law in Rom. 5:13 he is referring to the entire Law of Moses.  But it is unscriptural to suggest that there were no laws or commandments whatsoever given to those in the book of Genesis.

How could God warn Cain that if he did not do well "SIN" would lie at his door? (Isa. 5:7). And just what do you think the "commandments, statutes, and laws" of God were that Abraham obeyed (Gen. 26:5)?

Got offered "eonian life" to Adam and Eve back in the Garden, but they rejected it and God knew that they would reject it. But it was a part of God's plan to introduce this potential at that time.  We too must get past the "flaming sword" of paradise if we are to have eonian life (Rev. 2:7).  This is too big a subject for an email. Hope you understand.

God be with you,

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------            -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to add,
didn't God tell them not to eat from the tree of good and evil?
If I'm correct then that would be a commanding law to me, wouldn't it?
I'm sure, as Ray said before, there must be tons of info not put in the scriptures.

Any comments?

Randy


« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 11:29:24 AM by Randy »
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 01:33:17 PM »

Hi Randy,

Many times I have speculated on what might have been discussed between our Lord and Adam as they walked through or sat in the Garden together, I am sure many magnificent things were spoken of that never made it to the scriptures.

Some day we will know.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 10:20:23 AM »

Did Adam & Eve have faith prior to learning good & evil?
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 06:29:12 PM »

Did Adam & Eve have faith prior to learning good & evil?

Hi Sonofone,

What would they have needed faith for?

According to these verses they would not have needed or had faith since they were walking with the Lord face to face.

Perhaps you could clarify the question.


Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

His Peace to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 06:36:50 PM by hillsbororiver »
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 06:36:54 PM »

Did Adam & Eve have faith prior to learning good & evil?

Hi Sonofone,

According to this verse they would not have needed or had faith since they were walking with the Lord face to face.


Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Peace,

Joe

Faith would have been necessary to reason whose word was true once the serpent introduced an opposing view to Gods word would it not?
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 06:53:41 PM »

Hi again Sonophone,

I would say it is apparent they had no faith as they did not comply, their "work" by eating the fruit was sinful, can we work sinful deeds and claim our faith is alive and well?

Adam appears to have committed the ultimate work without faith (by eating the fruit) as sin and death passed to all mankind, at least this is how I see it.


Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 07:37:40 PM »

Was it even possible for them to have faith absent the ability to know good from evil? I do have a reason for asking beyond unreasonable speculation.As is obvious they did not require faith to believe that God existed.They did require faith in order to remain faithful though. So was it possible for them to have faith?
Logged

rjsurfs

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 10:59:03 PM »

Hi Sonofone,

I am asking to understand... because I believe Joe answered your question in reply #3.

Joe:
Quote
What would they have needed faith for?

According to these verses they would not have needed or had faith since they were walking with the Lord face to face.

Perhaps you could clarify the question.

Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Sonofone when you say:
Quote
I do have a reason for asking beyond unreasonable speculation.

Could you tell us what this reason is?  I think it would make it easier to understand and discuss with you.

Bobby
Logged

pylady

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 11:59:16 PM »

Hi Sonofone,

Interesting question you raise.  Is faith only believing in what we cannot see, or does having faith include obedience?

Joes mention of Adam walking in the garden with the Lord brought to mind how Peter walked with Jesus during His ministry, being taught by Him just as Adam must have been taught by Him. 

Peter thought his faith was strong, but Jesus told Peter he would deny Him three times.  When the Lord told Adam that if he ate of the fruit he would die was He really telling Adam that he would eat of the fruit? 

Would Adam have felt sure that He would obey, not eat the fruit, after all his appetite was well satisfied with all the other fruit available in the garden?  He may have felt confident that he would obey.  God had not yet brought the cause of his disobedience into Adam's life - Eve, and his love for her!

Peter, too, was confident of his faith.  He hadn't yet seen the cause of his denial - the Roman soldiers and the Jewish mob that made him so fearful! 

Remember, the scriptures tell us Adam was not deceived.  He believed, he knew if he ate the fruit he would die.  If faith without works is dead, then Adam 's faith became a dead faith, therefore he died.  If our faith is alive, in God's sight, we are alive.  If our faith is dead (fruitless) we are dead in God's sight.

  You said "Was it even possiblefor them to have faith absent the ability to know good from evil?"  Was just thinking they hadn't experience evil yet.  But they must have understood that actions have consequences.  They would have learned this just in the physical world, understood the law of cause and effect by watching the animals, and even in their own lives.  Maybe even understood that certain actions had undesirable consequences - after all, Adam was a mature man, not a child.

Hi, Joe    I always wondered whether God dealt with Adam directly, or face to face, as you said, or through angels.  Is there a verse that says that?  Thanks!

Anyway,  these were just the thoughts rambling thru my mind when I read your post, Sonofone.  Don't know if it makes any sense to you.

Your sister in Christ,

               Cindy
Logged

rk12201960

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 12:01:34 AM »

Hi Joe,
I agree, we'll have many things to learn. ;D
 
Hi Sonofone,
as Joe and Bobby said
Adam spoke to God, that being so how could they have faith if they seen Jehovah?

The action they took would be more along the lines of not obeying.
We now know that they were directed to do so by God and not because of a default in their being.
It wasn't a lack f faith but more of a journey to become like God.

Faith is a gift from God.
Gods speed.
Randy
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 12:59:05 AM »

Hi Sonofone,

I am asking to understand... because I believe Joe answered your question in reply #3.

Joe:
Quote
What would they have needed faith for?

According to these verses they would not have needed or had faith since they were walking with the Lord face to face.

Perhaps you could clarify the question.

Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Sonofone when you say:
Quote
I do have a reason for asking beyond unreasonable speculation.

Could you tell us what this reason is?  I think it would make it easier to understand and discuss with you.

Bobby

Thanks for your post Bobby.I really don't want to be the agent of confusion here. In short in my pondering the story of Adam & Eve I thought of something I never thought of before.That is the moment the serpent told Eve something different from what God said,she was brought to reason and ultimately decide between two opposing truths.

In light of the fact that before they ate from this tree they had no knowledge of good or evil the question naturally became how could she know that one choice could be bad or wrong or vice verca?Then one thought leads to another and the question concerning faith comes up,could they have possibly had faith if they could not reason or discern right from wrong,good from evil.

The answer to this question shed so much light on what actually happened here that I just wanted to see if the initial question was proper to begin with.Obviously they needed no faith to believe God existed,they did need faith to believe that Gods word was true however.

At least that's how I see it.I ask the question rather than posting what my thoughts are because I know this forum is not intended to be used to teach.So sorry for causing any unnecessary confusion.
Logged

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 08:49:21 AM »

Sonofone,

If i understand you post, you HAVE an answer for this inigma? But you want to see if others will come to your conclusion?

Save us all the trouble, lets hear it!

We both know God created the creature SUBJECT to Vanity, And so Satan fullfilled a purpose on that day.

Are you saying the same Faith that will be "Given" to us, will not be given to them?..And if not, how do WE qualify to receive this faith ?

Is there a written test?...is it because of our so many "good works", what is it that qualifys US to get this faith? When you were 3 years old, did you have great Faith?..how about when you were 10?...is it AGE that qualifys us?

Or perhaps we should beleive the Scriptures For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Chris R
Logged

rjsurfs

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 09:23:14 AM »

Hi Sonofone,

I believe I understand what you are saying now, thank you for explaining that.  I may not have the answer you are looking for.  I believe however that the answer lies most simply in this:
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

I know that you said Eve had to decide "between two opposing truths", but remember Satan lied to her by telling Eve she would not die.
Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:...


Eve actually did know that it was wrong to eat of the tree... she did also know that she would surely die, as she corrected the serpent in his lie... but the serpent convinced her to sin anyway.

Why?
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Did they have faith?  It doesn't appear they truly did considering the outcome.

The next conference will be a great opportunity to ask Ray something along this line if you like.  Personally, I have let go of many of the questions I once had around the early Genesis account because I realize God is not revealing these truths to me at this time.  He may never and that is ok.  I will share with you that at the last Nashville conference I asked Ray a question that had been bothering me regarding God's specific name "Elohim".  Ray was very kind and gave me a wonderful answer... but it flew right over my head... I heard his words but didn't understand them entirely... and I realized that was ok... it is just not my time or it is just not necessary for me to know.  I see many of these same type questions by many people around the accounts of the beginning.  It may be best if this is bothering you to let it lay until the time, if it comes, that God is willing to give to you the understanding.

Bobby
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 10:42:25 AM »

Sonofone,

If i understand you post, you HAVE an answer for this inigma? But you want to see if others will come to your conclusion?

Save us all the trouble, lets hear it!

We both know God created the creature SUBJECT to Vanity, And so Satan fullfilled a purpose on that day.

Are you saying the same Faith that will be "Given" to us, will not be given to them?..And if not, how do WE qualify to receive this faith ?

Is there a written test?...is it because of our so many "good works", what is it that qualifys US to get this faith? When you were 3 years old, did you have great Faith?..how about when you were 10?...is it AGE that qualifys us?

Or perhaps we should beleive the Scriptures For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Chris R
It's not quite that simple Craig.In my pondering I happened upon a conclusion that seemed entirely consistent with scripture for me or to me.But as I said,I thought it would be more appropriate to ask the question that discovered this trail so to speak,rather than bring my thoughts and ideas here.

I really am trying to respect the rules of the forum,and did not think I would pose any harm in just asking the question to see if I'm off.

If I have permission to share what has registered for me I am more than willing to share.
Logged

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Laws
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 11:30:04 AM »

I think you meant Chris ;D

Go ahead and post, unless it leads to confusion or debate there won't be a problem, if the worst happens we will lock the thread or delete the post.

Or PM it to a moderator first.

Craig
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 11:32:09 AM by Craig »
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 01:31:12 PM »

I think you meant Chris ;D

Go ahead and post, unless it leads to confusion or debate there won't be a problem, if the worst happens we will lock the thread or delete the post.

Or PM it to a moderator first.

Craig
Ok Craig your right by the way I did mean Chris ???

I'll try to be brief. ;) I was looking at the nature of Jesus,when I stumbled on the question concerning Adam.When I consider that there was a point where they had no knowledge,or awareness of Good or evil,an interesting question came to mind.Which is the one I posed.In my thinking I saw somethings that appear to be consistent with the whole of scripture.

God says without faith it is impossible to please him.Now Adam did not need faith to know God was real,so it would appear that Adam enjoyed what everyone wants and looks for.He had undeniable proof as to the existence of God as well as peaceful fellowship with him.

This was great for Adam,but not enough for God.God requires faith in him from us to be pleased with us.So God set up not only a commandment to be obeyed,he introduced conflict,a reason for doubt both in him and his word.This conflict came in the form of a serpent who challenged the word of God.

In the face of this challenge they now have two opposing reports to believe,and absent the ability to know good from evil no way of appreciating or discerning the difference between the two.They knew what God said,and while there was no opposing view they had no conflict or problem in obeying.

It is only after they have  an alternative that the commandment is challenged.Whose report would they believe and on what basis would they be persuaded?It is here I reasoned that they had no faith,neither could they have had it absent the requisite knowledge of good and evil.

This seems entirely consistent with scripture.When God gave the law his purpose was to show man that his laws or ways were to high for them to reach in and of themselves.The law revealed our nature and our shortcoming.The only way to satisfy the law now is through faith in the work of Jesus.

I believe the same was true of Adam,God revealed to Adam that he lacked what was necessary to have a relationship with him that was pleasing and acceptable which is faith.Eve proved she had no faith by taking the serpents word over Gods,Adam proved he had no faith by following after his wife,rather than believing that God could restore her.

I believe they never had it as faith is given by God and it involves the full faculty of reasoning.For faith involves persuasion of the mind that what is said is true.You can't have this without a working knowledge of good and evil.

If what I am saying is true.I can see clearly the universal plan of God here,as the story of Adam & Eve would point to a process.
Logged

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Laws
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 02:14:39 PM »

Quote
I can see clearly the universal plan of God here,as the story of Adam & Eve would point to a process.

They last sentence is the key in my mind.  If the rest helps you to get that the creation of man is a process, then I would say not to sweat the small stuff.

Man was created carnal and upon creation they were as babes, a baby goes on for awhile sinless, and then they mature, you tell them not to eat a cookie and what do they do?  Eat the cookie.  Adam and Eve were no different.  Adam and Eve knew God, because it says God walked with them, but God did not dwell in them and that is the process we are in now, the process of burning out the carnal I, and replacing it with Christ in us and having God dwell in us.  When the day comes that we can say "I and the Father are one" then we will be finished, perfected.

And this is the hardest thing any of us will ever have to go through. 

It is a perfect plan.

Craig
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 08:05:21 PM by Craig »
Logged

sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 05:12:42 PM »

Quote
I can see clearly the universal plan of God here,as the story of Adam & Eve would point to a process.

They last sentence is the key in my mind.  If the rest helps you to get that the creation of man is a process, then I would say not to sweat the small stuff.

Man was created carnal and upon creation they were as babes, a baby goes on for awhile sinless, and then they mature, you tell them not to eat a cookie and what do they do?  Eat the cookie.  Adam and Eve were no different  Adam of Eve knew God, because it says God walked with them, but God did not dwell in them and that is the process we are in now, the process of burning out the carnal I, and replacing it with Christ in us and having God dwell in us.  When the day comes that we can say "I and the Father are one" then we will be finished, perfected.

And this is the hardest thing any of us will ever have to go through. 

It is a perfect plan.

Craig
Fair enough thanks.
Logged

Little Joe

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 07:08:41 PM »

Quote
I can see clearly the universal plan of God here,as the story of Adam & Eve would point to a process.

They last sentence is the key in my mind.  If the rest helps you to get that the creation of man is a process, then I would say not to sweat the small stuff.

Man was created carnal and upon creation they were as babes, a baby goes on for awhile sinless, and then they mature, you tell them not to eat a cookie and what do they do?  Eat the cookie.  Adam and Eve were no different  Adam of Eve knew God, because it says God walked with them, but God did not dwell in them and that is the process we are in now, the process of burning out the carnal I, and replacing it with Christ in us and having God dwell in us.  When the day comes that we can say "I and the Father are one" then we will be finished, perfected.

And this is the hardest thing any of us will ever have to go through. 

It is a perfect plan.

Craig

Thank you Craig, that is very encouraging to me.  Ahhh, the wisdom I am gleaning from you guys!!  :D
Logged

psalmsinger

  • Guest
Re: Laws
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2008, 08:42:32 AM »

Hello ,

I think everyone is given a "measure of faith".  Adam and Eve like most of humanity had more faith in their own works and the words of the serpent than they did God. Isn't mankind mostly faithful to the "beast" and it's system?  You can certainly have faith in the wrong things or the wrong people.  I think as Jesus calls us to have faith in God, He also increases our faith according to His will.

Rom 12:3
3   For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(KJV)


Rest in the Lord,

Barbara
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.039 seconds with 19 queries.