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[Russ Tallmadge]

I was searching the archives and came across this post regarding suicide and how it might be man's appointed time and means to die. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5499.0.html
I am especially curious about this comment from the Free Will teachings:  "Our will cannot change any of God’s "appointed events" or His "appointed times" in which each event must occur. You might think that you can. You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly—how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you.
        "There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in [Heb: authority over’] the day of death..." (Ecc. 8:.

    Is this verse too difficult for anyone to understand? The Scriptures are clear:

        "...the Spirit gives life" (II Cor. 3:6).

        "His breath [Heb: ruach, ‘spirit’] goes forth, he returns to his earth; I that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4).

    One cannot continue to live without spirit.

        "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).

    And God says that

        "NO MAN has power over the spirit."

    The implications of this verse go far beyond mere suicide. This verse also confirms that no one can kill or murder another person until the "appointed time" set by God. No soldier or civilian has ever died even in war except at the "appointed time."

    There is probably not a person alive who has not wondered just exactly when he might die? We saw from Ecc. 1:2 that there is an appointed time "...to DIE." And Ecc. 8:8 tells us that

        "...no man has power over the spirit to retain it [when God takes our spirit, we die, Ecc. 12:7]; neither has he power over the day of [his] death..."

    But there’s more:

        "Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for it is his portion." (Ecc. 5:18).

    This is not exactly what the Hebrew manuscripts say. Here is what it should read: "...during the NUMBER of days in his life…" The word for "all" as in "all the days of his life," is the Hebrew word, mispar, and its first definition is "NUMBER." Man’s days are "NUMBERED." And God only knows the number.

    Here’s another one:

        "Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with Thee, You have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5).

    The word "determined" comes from the Hebrew charats and means "to point sharply." Here we are told that man’s "months" are determined to a precise sharp point in time. There will be no variation in time as to when we must die.

    Not only is our precise time of death appointed, but also our resurrection:

        "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my APPOINTED TIME will I wait [in the grave] till my change [resurrection] come" (Job 14:14).

    Another:

        "Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).

    Everyone who has ever been born or will yet be born has been appointed by God to be born at that time and season according the purpose of His will. And likewise, everyone who has died or will yet die has been appointed by God to die at that time and season according to the purpose of His will. It just is not possible to alter or change anything in the purpose and intention of a sovereign God."
(end quote)

If this is true and and it is indeed possible for suicide to be God's will, why would anything that we do according to God's will (and are therefore powerless to prevent or alter), such as our "appointed time to die", be something that would or could incur God's Lake of Fire discipline?

Regards,
Russ

[Kat]

Hi Russ,

This question pops up from time to time.  I found an email that I think will help you with this.  It was a rather long email, so I boldened the part that I thought most applied to your question.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html -----

Dear Charles:
As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.
 
I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamitory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds.  We cannot force God's ways in to OUR WAYS.
Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.  God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
 
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
 
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
 
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

God be with you,
Ray

[Sorin]

So I can not die before my appointed time. That means I'm pretty much forced to live this life until it is time for me to die.
This also means there is an appointed time for one to be born, and obviously in order for one to be born certain things must take place, and before those things could take place in an unsinning manner, for lack of a better word... there must be a marriage. So to me this speaks volumes, it means we are but puppets, and our lives are not our own. We can not bring about any 'event' before it's appointed time , anymore then we can prevent an 'event' from happening, when it's appointed time arrives.

I really don't know what to say to that-it means everything we have is from above, and everything we don't have is also from above because we aren't supposed to have it. At least not yet... maybe never... I don't know...

[Snowfire]

If we use our natural wants, needs and desires as a basis for our love of God,  we claim sovereignsty over God and we fail.  Remember God is our First love and God never Fails.

It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

I believe what you have said is true.  That's what it means by God's Sovereignty.  God is working out His plan through this human race.  Now it's an experience of evil (CLV) God has this world going through.  Haven't we all experienced that evil in this life.  It's seem we need this type of experience (to know good and evil) so that we can have a full understanding of things.  But it does not end here!

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

Puppets?  No, it's lumps of clay.
Here's an email from Ray.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#puppets ------------------

Dear Nathan:

That fact that God exists and that God is sovereign does not somehow deny OUR EXISTENCE. What we say and do absolutely matters. That's WHY we exist, because our existence, and what do say and do DOES MATTER.  People ask me all the time:

"Well, if God is going to ultimately save everyone, why did Jesus even have to die in the first place?" 

That is one of the most stupid questions there is, Yet I get asked it all the time. JESUS DYING IS THE VERY CAUSE AND REASON WHY everyone is going to be saved!!

By your very existence, you are FORCED to make hundreds of choices daily and live your life. Making choices and living your life brings knowledge, experience, and either builds or sometimes destroy traits of character.

God is accomplishing is plan in humanity whether they know or understand what He is doing of not, and most of course, do not know or understand. It is a great privilege to know and understand the plan of God, precious few do. Understanding God's sovereignty PROVES to us that EVERYTHING is going to turn out okay, not only for us, but for the whole creation. What greater hope could there ever be than THIS?

If the evil teachings of Christendom were true, then we would have a small fraction of people "freely" choosing to do right, and the vast majority going to a fabled hell to burn for all eternity. What kind of security is there in such damnable heresy?   

Now I am sorry that it just DESTROYS one's very emotional makeup and false human security to learn that God is greater than puny man. Man wants to be his own god. Man wants to be in charge of his own destiny. If that were true, then we would all end up in the gutter. Man is not strong enough to do and live rightly. And those who do live a moderately righteous life, only do so because God has enabled them to do so. EVERY GOOD GIFT COMES FROM ABOVE, FROM THE FATHER OF LIGHTS, James tells us.

People think that when they do something good, that they did it ALL ON THEIR OWN, and are to be congratulated. Likewise when people do something evil, that they also did it all on their own, and are to be condemned.  People do things according to what circumstances CAUSE THEM TO DO. That does not make us puppets. My no. We think too highly of ourselves if we think we are puppets--we are but A LUMP OF CLAY in the Potter's hands. The Potter being God.

I realize that people JUST HATE AND DESPISE teachings like this even if they are Scriptural Truth. People don't want to be just "a lump of clay in the Hands of a Potter." THEY want to BE THE POTTER. Well, they are not, they are but the clay and God is the SOVEREIGN POTTER.

The reason this thought discourages some people is because they see that THEIR OWN FLESH is really nothing in the sight of the GREAT SOVEREIGN CREATOR GOD. They are "carnal." Paul tells us to be carnally-minded is DEATH. Why?

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH: but to be spiritually minded is LIFE AND PEACE. Because the carnal mind is ENMITY [ABSOLUTE HATRED] AGAINST GOD" (Rom. 8:6-7).

And when one HATES GOD, they have NO LIFE AND PEACE, all ends in misery.

So what should one do? CRY OUT TO GOD TO CHANGE YOUR CARNAL HATE FILLED MIND TOWARD GOD! Does God even HEAR such prayers? Of course He does, why it is He who even INSPIRED one to pray that kind of prayer in the first place. And just when where and how does He do that? Through silly emails over the telephone lines like you are receiving from me RIGHT NOW!

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 12:1).

God will eventually HUMBLE every soul that ever existed.

"HUMBLE YOURSELF therefore under the MIGHTY hand of God, that He may EXALT YOU IN DUE TIME"  (I Pet. 5:6).

God be with you,

Ray

[Samson]

Good Day Russ,

                      This is a very good and interesting post, after reading the free will series, I've been struggling with leaving total control in Gods' hands. Growing up in a household with a very controlling father who constantly emphasized that " I will make it happen and I will control my course and to not leave it in anyones hands type of a Philosophy", didn't help me. After reading the free will series and reflecting on my past problems in life, one thing stood out from that series, these Evils in my life always have a Humbling effect on me, like Ray mentions in the series, it seems to me that prior to all these bad experiences, I needed a wake up call, because at the time, I was too haughty. I started to think of Job, Peter,Nebuchanezzar and others who were humbled by God and benefitted later. 1Peter.5:6 was mentioned in the post prior to this and its' so true. If we are not humbled and refined in this life, God will humble us in the next. Better to pray for this refinement and receive Gods Spiritual leaning now and if its' Gods Will, we won't have to be purified, refined, humbled and chastised later. Thankyou Kat and everyone else for your contributions to this post, I needed it too.

                                        Christ be with all of you, Samson(Brad).

[Sorin]

If we use our natural wants, needs and desires as a basis for our love of God,  we claim sovereignsty over God and we fail.

Hi Snowfire,

I assume you were referring to me. And you're right, I am guilty of that, and I need to repent.
 

Remember God is our First love and God never Fails.

It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

My 'love' for God is also lacking... mainly because of the things I lack. I'd look at what other people have, and feel like God must hate me or something. Like I'm accursed of God, and they are blessed. So it's really difficult for me to 'love' God, but I guess I have to try. I have to not base my love of God on what needs or desires He brings to pass in my life.

-Sorin

[Sorin]

Kat,

Thanks for that post; it was quite fitting with what I was saying.

Peace,
Sorin

[Snowfire]

If we use our natural wants, needs and desires as a basis for our love of God,  we claim sovereignsty over God and we fail.

Hi Snowfire,

I assume you were referring to me. And you're right, I am guilty of that, and I need to repent.
Sorin, the we in the above statement includes me too. I appologise for the statement coming out soo one sided.
You are not alone in this fire.
Snowfire 

Remember God is our First love and God never Fails.

It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

My 'love' for God is also lacking... mainly because of the things I lack. I'd look at what other people have, and feel like God must hate me or something. Like I'm accursed of God, and they are blessed. So it's really difficult for me to 'love' God, but I guess I have to try. I have to not base my love of God on what needs or desires He brings to pass in my life.

-Sorin

[Sorin]

If we use our natural wants, needs and desires as a basis for our love of God,  we claim sovereignsty over God and we fail.

Hi Snowfire,

I assume you were referring to me. And you're right, I am guilty of that, and I need to repent.
Sorin, the we in the above statement includes me too. I appologise for the statement coming out soo one sided.
You are not alone in this fire.
Snowfire 

Remember God is our First love and God never Fails.

It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

My 'love' for God is also lacking... mainly because of the things I lack. I'd look at what other people have, and feel like God must hate me or something. Like I'm accursed of God, and they are blessed. So it's really difficult for me to 'love' God, but I guess I have to try. I have to not base my love of God on what needs or desires He brings to pass in my life.

-Sorin

Snowfire,

No problem, I misunderstood, no need to apologize.

Peace,
Sorin