Question (Christ was made sin?)

[hillsbororiver]

Dear Ray,
     
    Thank you for your ministry. I had not intended to write until I have completed reading all on your website.  However I have been asked a question and would value your input......     
     
    My understanding of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is that He was fully God and fully man throughout His life on earth - but that He set aside His will / His glory etc and only said and did that which He head from or say the Father do.  In other words He could have performed all the miracles etc etc in and of Himself but only did / said everything  through the Spirit of the Father  - Thy will not mine be done - showing us how it to man should live - how to "be perfect as you Father in heaven is perfect..."...ie "to will and to do His good purpose".
     
    I have been asked about Phil 2 vvs 8-9...   And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    Phl 2:9   Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name..., I have been told that this means that "when He became a man, He ceased to be God". I cannot reconcile this with any Scripture - and would value your comments.
     
    Kind regards
     
    Elizabeth
     

    Dear Elizabeth:
    I'm afraid this is one of those questions that it would first take ten pages to explain what we mean
by "God." What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc.,   etc.  "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US"  (Matt. 1:23).  Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case?  Did He pray to HIMSELF?  On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING."  Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges."  Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9).  Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
     
    I'm sorry, but nearly 99% of all questions asked of me in emails are entirely too long for an email. I could easily spend a week or two researching and writing on this very question you ask. The Bible is not nearly as "simple" and Christians claim that it is. It will probably take me 60 pages to explain Matt. 5:22 and Matt. 10:28 in my upcoming Installment on Hell Part D. The more difficult Scriptures and concepts (as the one you just asked me), are tied to every other Scripture and concept in the entirety of the Bible.  People have no concept of absolutely how PRECISE one must be in his words and explanations of these things, or it will contradict some verse somewhere.  Maybe God has given me an ability to make difficult things understandable and seemingly "simple."  Nothing, however, is SIMPLE in the Scriptures.  If it were, not every major doctrine of Christendom would be UNscriptural.  Hope you understand.
    God be with you,
    Ray

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Ray,

        Perhaps I'm bringing up a subject which you consider "put to bed" and would prefer having it left that way. But I just thought I would write you a quick note of agreement.

        It concerns 2 Corinthians 5:21. (Christ made to be sin vs. sin offering). While you certainly destroyed all doubt about the proper meaning of that verse, I became curious as to what it said literally in Greek. I thought it would be appropriate for me to "search the scriptures" and learn what I could about why this controversy occurred. 

        After some cruising of the net, I found a bible study site that included the original Greek as part of their lessons. In its definition of the word sin (hamartia, 266), all the way at the bottom of many paragraphs of grammar usage that left my head spinning, there it was; 2 Corinthians 5:21 being used as an example of 'the abstract for the concrete'. It was translated as: He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner......

        As you stated, languages can't be translated literally word for word, but this is certainly closer to a sin offering than made to be sin.

        In addition, I realized that "For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin" can only be grammatically correct if the second 'sin' is used metaphorically, thus making it not a literal fact. Otherwise it is a bad translation (which it is).

        It's interesting to note that, even though they have that translation in their definitions, the bible study still uses the "to be sin"  in their lessons.

        May God bless you and yours.     

        Mike


        Dear Mike:

        NO, "He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner......"  is a horrible translation. God never treated His Son "AS IF" He were a sinner, seeing that He NEVER DID SIN!  "Sin OFFERING" is the proper translation, not based on the singular word "sin" from which it is taken, but based on the KNOWLEDGE OF HOWS LANGUAGE IS USED.  We have a plethora of proof from the Old Testament that "sin" MUST be translated "sin OFFERING," in many Scriptures, and that is why it was translated "sin offering" in many Scriptures. But in II Cor. 5:20, the Translators dropped the ball and did not do what they surely knew was the proper way to translate it, but since they were working with Greek rather than Hebrew, they let it slide.

        I have about 30 pages of notes on this subject and I will turn it into a full article in the near future, so look for it. There are many, many, Scriptural proofs against the damnable heresy that Jesus Himself was the personification of sin and that His Father was displeased with Him, and that He was marred in His Fathers hands, and had to be crushed and ground to powder all the days of His life, and that God thus poured out His anger, indignation and wrath against His Son, and that Jesus' blood was no different and no better than ours. I will blow this damnable teaching right out of the sky!

        God be with you,

        Ray

[hillsbororiver]

October 06 Christ/Sin Pt. I

http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA

November 06

http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma

http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3

[Brett]

October 06 Christ/Sin Pt. I

http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA

November 06

http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma

http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3

Do they have transcripts?

Brett

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Brett,

How are you doing? You have been missed Brother, I am very happy to see you here posting again, but unfortunately this particular topic has yet to be transcribed.

Kat has worked on and continues to work on getting everything transcribed and it is a huge undertaking.

Sorry about that but I am sure it will be available at some point.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Brett]

Hi Joe,

I'm good, thanks. I know I haven't much post or reply for while. Most of the time I read almost everyday in bible-truths forum and also others have answers and questions similar I have.

I understand the transcripts have not yet and it is huge. Kat will do for us as long as she can and time.

Brett

[lilitalienboi16]

Man ray blows me out of the water. How he has all this knowledge just baffles my little mind.

I pray i too one day might be able to teach these things as ray does but most importantly that Christ live His life in me. I hate the beast =[!

Thanks again joe for that, it was a great reminder to read.

God bless,

Alex

[hillsbororiver]

Hi again Brett,

Glad to hear you are doing well, just drop in and say "hi" every now and then so we know you are still OK. 

Hey Alex,

I am right with you, on all the points you made. Every day I am thankful that God lead me here to cut through the endless conjecture of man made speculation and replaced it with the sound teachings the Lord has provided Ray.

Still in my possession is a library of "Christian" books that only served up confusion, never in my life have I read the refreshing crystal clear messages that have inspired me and fed my spirit as the articles on Bible Truths have. The way scripture is used rather than human reasoning has convicted me of the truths contained within Ray's papers, until it is shown with scriptural witnesses that there is error I will be a proponant of all of the teachings here.

His Peace and Wisdom to you both,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

I know what you mean about those "Christian" books Joe!

Some where Ray has written something to the effect that people mostly try or are trying to get out of their circumstances and very few depend on God entirely for everything!

The teaching that God punished His Son who is the spotless Lamb of God, is such a perversion and corruption. What is sad is that those who agree, go along with or accept such teachings end up manifesting the consequences in their own person of such beliefs. I for one collapsed into a ten year stint in clinical depression. After being made by God to continue through and out of that painful episode, I am still not out of the woods because now the self esteem has to come off its pedestal.That is a very painful experience too but nevertheless the preferable one to living with a false sense of security!

Peace to you brother

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

The teaching that God punished His Son who is the spotless Lamb of God, is such a perversion and corruption. What is sad is that those who agree, go along with or accept such teachings end up manifesting the consequences in their own person of such beliefs.

Hi Arcturus,

This is so true, we actually lose sight of His plan and purpose if we believe the Father poured His wrath on His Son. This sacrifice was done out of love not revenge or hate, can anyone say that for even a moment God the Father despised and hated the very Son with whom He had declared He was "well pleased?"

Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

At the Nashville '07 Conference Ray put together an outstanding description of the love both Father and Son had/have for their creation, in infinite Wisdom they put this plan of salvation or actually this process of creation where the experience and knowledge of good and evil must be lived and that to truly appreciate immortality we must for a time be mortal, to truly appreciate good we must know the ramifications of evil.

We can see the Father's tears through the tears of Abraham as he prepared to sacrifice Isaac, does one suppose that Abraham hated and was anxious to pour out wrath on Isaac, or was he prepared to follow through this with a heavy heart?
Was Abraham more loving and just than God?

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

God in His mercy spared Isaac (and by extension spared Abraham) but He did not spare His Son or Himself from this demonstration of infinite love for His creation. In essence He showed us He understood us at our very core, if all of mankind had to experience this heartbreak of death to attain our inheritance then He would too, in the most extreme fashion no less.

This was one of the most profound teachings I ever experienced and there were grown men in tears (myself included) as the realizations hit home during that presentation by Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you Sister,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Joe

the experience and knowledge of good and evil must be lived and that to truly appreciate immortality we must for a time be mortal, to truly appreciate good we must know the ramifications of evil.

We must know the ramifications of evil...THAT is the very hard part.

Eph 6 : 12 For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly sphere.

Those despotisms and wickedness in this present darkness, is part of the plan of God to conclude us into union with Him and to draw our strength, endurance and patience from Him. God is the armor of truth, integrity, peace, faith, salvation and glory and part of the process of God is to experience vulnerability, abuse, deception, dishonesty, depravity and finally victory over all the strategies and deceits of the devil. Such strength's are not in our flesh or personalities bound to vanity, but are in the Spirit of Christ who makes us stand or experience the fall of the righteous man and the getting up again and again because of HIM the righteous ONE.

there were grown men in tears (myself included)

Deception is a gross insidiously wicked tool of evil. It has made our Father and His Son appear as hideously evil loveless gods of hate against our weakness, indifference against our failures and disdain against our dependence. To be grown and to cry is so precious as His Spirit touches some hearts and minds to open and experience His love and the gift of love to us that promises us life without death when He will wipe away all our tears. To have tears in this hardened world and present darkness, is a gift showing renewed sight I believe and what an awesome moment to have been in the experience of knowing His love as you received the truth of His Words as Ray expounded on who God really IS.

Thanks for sharing that.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Brett]

Hello,

I probably sound challenge, but really I am very concerning about the scripture truth. I hope you don't mind when I ask you.


Flesh have sin;  Sin in the flesh 

            or

Flesh not have sin;  Sin not in the flesh



Do you know which one is correct? If you know the answer, mind if I ask you which scripture that is support your answer? Not to hastily answer but be seriously. 

I appreciate it.

Brett

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Brett

Here are a few thoughts that might help. I believe my other brothers and sisters here in the Forum will also be able to add more direction and insights for you as to what they see and understand also.

For me, I believe that Only through the blood shed by the sacrifice of Jesus' terrible death of His sinless flesh and preciously pure body, are we given the way to be healed and restored of our own sinful bodies.

The  flesh of Jesus was pure and untainted without sin that is why the shedding of HIS blood is sufficient to heal us and make our sinfulness be removed and the scars and violations of sins we suffer against us, to be healed. There is nothing deeper enough than the life that is in the blood of Christ, that can heal us from our own sufferings of having to be housed in a carnal mind and body that is subject to vanity and harnessed to liability to temptations, failures and spiritual weakness. The flesh and body of Jesus is and was not like our own. Jesus was without sin.

John 6 : 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will and purpose but to do the will andpurpose of Him Who sent Me. 51 I Myself, am this Living Bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever: and also the Bread that I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.

Jesus Christ is the only one who has come to the Earth from the Heaven. No other flesh has housed the incorruptible sinless Spirit of Christ in full. Only Jesus is the express image of God. We are in the process of being transformed into His image. Few are chosen in each generation to receive in part only the promise of His full redemption and salvation. These few are in the judgement on the house of God that has been occurring since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All the others who are not chosen and are not being judged throughout their lives now as in judgement on the House of God NOW, will be saved in the LOF White Throne Judgement in the Day Of The Lord.

Gal 3 : 22 But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Brett,

Let me attempt to expand a bit on what Arcturus was saying here, if in our minds (in scripture heart/mind is one) we constantly seek to do his will we cannot sin, but we know in our present condition this is not yet possible, when we embrace thoughts (in our heart) of lust, anger, revenge, covetousness, etc. we are already sinning and may even give license to our body to carry through on the evil desires that eminate from the heart.

Here are Words from our Lord in regard to this, we do not have to physically in our flesh commit the act of adultery to be guilty of adultery;

Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The OT Prophets (inspired by God) wrote of this as well;

Pro 6:18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

Pro 21:4  A high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It all begins in the carnal mind, our flesh does not sin in and of itself, our hearts (minds) do. Our hand will not steal something unless directed to by our mind.

Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe