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[Deborah-Leigh]

I have been thinking about this scripture.

John 15 : 27 But you also will testify and be My witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Ray says we should pay attention to the words.

In the above Scripture I can see that Jesus was speaking to His Disciples to the exclusion of Judas Iscariot who had left the room.

I do not know what Jesus meant by saying that His Disciples had been with Him from the beginning. They were not with Him during their lives and only after Jesus had commissioned them to "Come. Follow Me" were they WITH HIM. Was this the beginning for His Disciples and is it the same for us too? I think it is.


From The Lake of Fire - Part XIV

The Beast Within

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

Quote:

Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
Unquote.

I believe that Peter's faith did not fail because Jesus  prayed to the Father to preserve the faith in Peter and permit him to be converted and then go on to strengthen his brethren. Both Peter and Judas, I believe, were sifted by Satan but Peter survived and Judas self destructed.

The Disciples did not have any clue what Jesus was teaching when they were following him physically. Do we have any greater clue when we are in physical Babylon? No.

After Jesus was crucified the Disciples were frightened and in despair and fear. As we are leaving  Babylon do we not also feel like we have lost Jesus or that He has died to us and we have nowhere to turn or go as we feel lost and abandoned? Then once Jesus makes Himself visible to us to let us know He is alive OUTSIDE of Babylon, then we can wait for His Spirit to reveal His Truth. 

Like the Disciples, we can know Jesus is alive  to us in Spirit and in Truth unless we make a pact with Babylonian leaders to get onto their pay roll like Judas Iscariot did. The pay roll does not have to be money either. It can be any feel good justification for staying there.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[dewey]

hey arc, i beleve that you really do know what Jesus was saying .   when he said from the beginning. i belive he was not talking about yester day . we were all with him way back yonder; as the foundation was being laid . I belive judas did exactly what he was suposed to do . ask your self did he have free will? there is your answer. dont be hard on judas; he is our brother, and will be saved just like you and I. in the name of Jesus Christ dewey and paula love all people . dewey

[Little Joe]

Good post Arcturus!  I must admit I got "warm fuzzies" at times when I was in Babylon, but there wasn't any substance to it, and I always felt like an outsider, and somewhat inferior.

I think there is a lot of seed being planted out there by well meaning Christian crusaders, but converts aren't hardly given any chance before they are guided to fallow ground.    And there is a lot of it out there - in books, local churches, Christian radio, TV. etc.  I think I've seen it all, and I could go on and on!

Thank God Christ can be better found outside all of that!!   

His Peace,

Little Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Dewy

Just a few thoughts...

I did not mean to throw stones at Judas. Of course Judas was in the Plan of God. For me as I see it, the weak spiritual condition of Judas was acted out in betrayal and this resulted in the self destruction of Judas which is a lesson to all of us. The stronger spiritual condition of Peter who denied knowing Jesus, to save himself rather than to betray Christ, resulted in deep contrition.

It was Jesus who prayed for Peter and it was Jesus to commanded Judas to go and do quickly what he had to do. Neither Peter or Judas had the power to be or do anything other than what they ultimately did do. I believe this shows the profile of spiritual weakness through their experiences recorded for us to learn from and recognise.

As for your comment quote :

we were all with him way back yonder; as the foundation was being laid .

I do not assume that I was in existence "as the foundation was being laid." I have to say if God asked me what he asked Job I would hope to respond like Job did. God asked Job quote Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Declare to Me, if you have and know understanding. God  told Satan that Job was HIS (God's) Servant and that there was none like him on the earth and that he was blameless and upright and who reverently feared God and abstained from and shunned all evil. I would hope to answer as this most amazing man Job did and his reply was Job 42 : 2 I know that You (God) can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained or thwarted. 5. I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees you. 6 Wherefore I abor myself and repent in dust and ashes.

I think that when the light of God shines on us it reveals that we are as Job said quote : Job 40 : 4 Behold, I am of small account and vile!

Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing. I do not suppose that this means that I was in existence with Christ from the foundations of the earth because just looking at the list of questions God asked Job, I realise that I too can not answer them. It might have been in God's MIND to create me but I was not yet created and I am not yet completed in His image. This is unlike Christ who was already with God in the beginning.

John 1 : 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him...

I came into existence on the 17th June 1957 and I am still a work in progress. I did not exist before then except I was always in the Plan of God to exist. Like a parent who decides to have children. When a parent decides to have children it does not mean that they already exist from that point on. The Plan exists but the children come into existence later.

What is wonderful is that the Plan of God will make me into the image of His Son and all will know that He is the First Son of God.

Little Joe

I am glad you are out!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[dewey]

hi arcturus
i was not going to reply,but my thoughts/spirit have won over.please believe that this is not an attack on you just a loving conversation, maybe i can learn something. I have been thinking about JN15:27  pastor smith says we should pay att to the words,i agree.I look at it like this,in JN15:27  BUT YOU WILL TESTIFY AND BE MY WITNESSES BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING. we can see that physical human beings were not with Jesus in the beginning, ah but how about the spirit? just maybe Jesus knew them before they were physical.he knew just the rite places to go to find them,he new perfectly well which one to say follow me . not one turned him down,or questioned him , why? prearranged,done deal . I can not see as some would have me belive that God would make spirits daily as he needs them. if any one believes the scripture that says, THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH , does that mean what it says or is that a parable ? here is some of my thinking on that subject  ,for instance where Jesus says {JN 17:12} WHILE I WAS WITH THEM I PROTECTED THEM AND KEEP THEM SAFE BY THAT NAME THAT YOU GAVE , NONE HAS BEEN LOST,EXCEPT THE ONE DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION,and here is the proof that the begining was not yesterday, SO THAT SCRIPTURE WOULD BE FULFILLED. this tells me that God inspired a prophet,  to write a long time ago about  judas.  As far as you quoting {Job38:4} WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH? DECLARE TO ME YOU HAVE UNDERSTANDING. then you quote {Job42:2} that is not an answer to Gods question. and now here is where i have a real problem with {Job42:5} I HAVE HEARD OF YOU BY THE HEARING OF THE EAR , now here is my problem with this.JOB SAYS BUT NOW MY EYE SEES YOU.  do we believe what Jesus said ,NO ONE HAS SEEN THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON, who do we believe Jesus or Job?                                                                                                 
   this has very little to do with your post ,i just thought i would throw this in . {Ro7:7}thru
{Ro7:25} makes a sinner like me understand some of the things i do that i do not want to do. but when i can not carry the cross as Jesus did,my first thought is this ,Jesus said what ever you ask of the father in my name, you know the rest of it.so with that said i say in your holy sons name Jesus Christ Father please forgive me for i have sinned , and my faith tells me that i am clean again.

Dewey and Paula love all people

Dewey

[musicman]

Hey Dewey.  I believe Christ here.  No one has seen the Father except the son.  So Job saw God in some manner.  Wasn't God the Father though.  It was God of the OT.  In other words, it was Christ.  Ray has some to say on this matter.

[Kat]

Hi Dewey,

JN15:27  BUT YOU WILL TESTIFY AND BE MY WITNESSES BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING. we can see that physical human beings were not with Jesus in the beginning, ah but how about the spirit?

I was trying to understand what you were saying, in your post you indicate that maybe we existed before we were born?
This is not what Ray teaches.  Here is a segment of an email where he states Adam do not exist before he was created.  So neither would any human exist before they were born.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4544.0.html ------------

 COMMENT:  Once we are born into the human family, we never go out of existence. Before Adam's creation, he DID NOT EXIST, but after his death, he still DID EXIST, albeit in the spirit that God preserved in His keeping just as He does for all that die. They cease to have conscious life, but they most assuredly "exist," else their life was of no value, and nothing would be carried over from this life into the next.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
   
As far as who Job was talking to in Job 42:5, it would be the same person that spoke throughout the whole Old Testament,  Jehovah - Jesus Christ.
Here is an email from Ray that explains this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2364.0.html -------

Dear James:

People often fail to understand even the physical aspects of the Scriptures simply because they do not follow or believe the principles and declarations in the Scriptures. What good does it do to argue all the Scriptures which speak of the hair, head, eyes, ears, face, mouth, arms, hands, feet, etc., "of the LORD," and then be totally ignorant of Who the "LORD" really is, and who the FATHER really is?
 
Is the LORD [Jehovah] of the Old Testament the God and Father of Jesus Christ?  Absolutely NOT.
 
Notice what Jesus said concerning His God and His Father:  "...NO MAN knows the the Son, but the Father, NEITHER knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL HIM" (Matt. 11:27 & Luke 10:22).  Now then, with that in mind:  "NO MAN has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE has declared [unfoled or interpreted] Him" (John 1:18). Did Jesus lie?  Did Moses indeed see "God the FATHER?"  Not according to the Scriptures:  not according to Jesus His Son.  Did the Apostles know anything about the Father of Jesus?  "Philip said unto Him, Lord show US [all of us] the  Father, and it suffices US" (John 14:08).
 
The "LORD--Elohim/Jehovah/God" of the Old Testament was Jesus Christ, not Jesus' Father. And God the Father is SPIRIT (John 4:24), and INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15).
 
God is SPIRIT (John 4:24)
God is INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15)
No man has seen God (John 1:18)
No man ever heard God or seen His shape [Gk: 'nor a perception of Him have you seen]" (John 5:37)
Jesus came out from God (Rev. 2:14;  John 8:42;  16:28;  17:5, 8, 24, Col. 1:13;  etc.)
Jesus is THE LORD/Jehovah of the Old Testament (John 8:58;  I Cor. 10;4;  etc.)
Jesus IS A MAN (I Thes. 2:15).
God is NOT A MAN (Num. 23:19).
Etc., etc., etc.
 
The above Scriptures don't contradict any Scriptures. The above arguments of your friend contradict hundreds of Scriptures.

God be with you,
Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Dewy

Thank you for your response.

I looked up the Scripture you referred to. For me,  Jesus was not a sinner so there is nothing like sin that I  can profess to be of, in or like Jesus. The Name Jesus Christ or mouthing or verbalising "In the Name of Jesus Christ" for me is not a formula for God's approval or God's agreement to give me anything. In the Name of Jesus Christ means for me to carry the cross as He did and to suffer as He did and to approach God as He did which was Thy Will Be Done, as Jesus Christ said. This is rather different to saying my will be done, You do it and in the Name of Jesus Christ You have to! I believe this attitude expresses the law of the sin. The Law of God, motivates that God is to be served with the mind and heart and that it is God Who will achieve in all people the success of this Plan.

You said you thew in Rom 7:25 saying it had nothing to do with my post. On the contrary!    Paul observes.Romans 7 : 24 Unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! (Sounds like Job ) Who will release and deliver me from the shackles of this body of death?25 I Thank God! HE will! through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. If we follow HIS Ways, HIS Truth and HIS Life, then we are walking in His Name.

I too do not communicate this to you with any personal vendeta or grievance to you personally either Dewy.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[CEO]

Dear Arc and Dewey

I believe the beginning referred to here is of Jesus'  earthly ministry of which his audience, the apostles observed and remembered.

Dewey, Eby and his law of circularity agree with your here before birth theory,we don't.

Imagine being told by Jesus you (we) will bear witness!!! and knowing what the rest of your life you will be doing!

askseeknock  Charles O

[CEO]

Dear Arcturus

PS  Jesus prayed for Satan to 'get behind me' with Peter, not so with Judas

[hillsbororiver]

I think there is a lot of seed being planted out there by well meaning Christian crusaders, but converts aren't hardly given any chance before they are guided to fallow ground.   

So true Joe;

Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Joe 

CEO  You observe :

I believe the beginning referred to here is of Jesus'  earthly ministry of which his audience, the apostles observed and remembered.

As a parallel, I see that in our generation, our beginning to walk with Jesus is as we go INTO Babylon. This is in line with God calling His People to come out of her. God's people are in Babylon as Ray's teachings have so wonderfully pointed out for us. For me this is like the Apostles. They too were in a pagan Church of Judaism when Jesus called them yet even as they walked talked and supped with Jesus, they were clueless as to what He meant. Only after Jesus died and then returned to them to open their minds, did they receive their conversion. Then they understood and were set free from the law of sin and their attachments to the physical requirements of the law of sin. It was then they were released from the Old Mosaic Covenant to the New Spiritual Covenant.

As a parallel, I see that only when we LEAVE Babylon, and the BABYLONIAN Jesus DIES to us,... you know,... when that OTHER Jesus that Babylon teaches DIES to us....only then do we come out and then the True Spirit of Christ is given to us to receive if He so chooses.  Then it is His Spirit that comes in to sup with us and expound to our hearts and minds who He really is in HIS SPIRIT and in HIS TRUTH and not who the world with Babylon would make Him out to be which is in their image and likeness, controlled by their prayers, lusts of their flesh, pride of their lives and lust of their eyes.

Babylon worships her own image and likeness and would make Jesus Christ out to be her own footstool, skivvy and lackey. Where is there a Church that is not endowed with carnal prosperity, pomp and ceremony? Woe to Babylon who apostatises the Son of God and tramples upon His memory. Woe to Babylon when the  god they worship is unveiled to show them that they worship non other than Satan himself.

The Presence of Christ is not in Babylon. He visits from time to time and drags out who He chooses.

Matt 11 : 27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.

As you say CEO, Jesus commanded Satan to get behind HIM. I find that interesting. We do not have eyes in the back of our heads and for me this meant that we should no longer see Satan by command of Christ to get Satan behind us.  When we walk out the door, or get kicked out the door of Babylon or we are stoned and left for dead, we too by Grace of God, get up and walk away in the opposite direction of Babylon. Jesus Christ is the opposite direction of Babylon!

Judas in his weak spiritual state, was perfect for his role as betrayer. So is Satan. God made both and they both exist in His Word for our admonition.

Peace to you brothers

Arcturus

[chuckt]

Dear Arcturus

PS  Jesus prayed for Satan to 'get behind me' with Peter, not so with Judas

 Jesus dint pray for judas  because prophecy was to be fullfilled.

why would jesus pray against the prophets? all things MUST be fullfilled written....

judas was to betray the  christ for 30 pieces of silver and  then his house to be desolate as he perished.

and he did perish, he died soon after....


chuckt

[dewey]

hey ceo-charles o
     you shure got me pretty good on ,eby and his law of circularity.i looked for hours in this old bible that i use could not find ebys law any where, found all kinda laws , than i started thinking ,its an old bible couple pages missing ,than a friend told me i might as well quite looking and why .
      by the way i never said there was ever anyone here before birth, what i did say was that i belive that the spirit that a person gets at the moment of conseption has been with God along time .
     i sure do hope that the mods or any of the people never think that i am trying to teach,all that i am trying to do is verse my opinion, i really belive[MT23:10]   
    love ya brothers and sisters    dewey

[CEO]

Dear Dewey

I like your humor and see your point.

Charles O