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[indianabob]

Larry,

The first responsibility of one who teaches or shares their personal knowledge is to consider the needs of their students or of those who are the intended recipients of new and expanded knowledge.  This calls for a careful assessment of the language that is required to exchange the thoughts that one wishes to share.  Without this preparation and consensual agreement, communication must suffer.  However valuable your understanding has been to you and others of your acquaintance, it is of no value to me until I comprehend.  It would behoove you to seek deeper understanding of our group interest and our limitations before you expect to achieve mutual understanding of this topic.

As impressive as your presentation is and even if it is a treasure of great value, it was all Greek to me as I have no place in my present brain to store Greek language.  Perhaps a translation to the vernacular is called for.

Regards, Indianabob

[LittleBear]

It's not really math itself that is incomplete, but any formal system that attempts to capture all the truths of mathematics in its finite set of axioms and rules.

This sort of reminds me of the difference between the letter of the law and the life of the Spirit, or dead regimented religion as opposed to the vast freedom of faith.

Thanks for sharing this Larry,

Ursula

[dewey]

good morning brothers and sisters,
  Good job Indianabob.  I understood everything that travellary said , and I would love to explain, to everyone ,what it revieled to me .But because I type so slow it would be a great waste of time ,because my first five words would get my post deleted.
   Now my wife paula sits across the room from me shaking her finger, saying judge not least you be ... ah, you know the scripture.  Love all yall .
         dewey said it

[psalmsinger]

Thank you for sharing Godel's theorem.  Fantastic!  I remember arguing something about a theorem actually being a "theory"  (not fact) once in trig class, but got no answer.  That was in high school where I thought I knew everything before the age of 18 and have been going downhill ever since...LOL  (that's a joke, OK?)  This reminds me of studying science, astronomy etc. to see how God works His wonders to behold. Ray does that also methinks.  Anyway, I enjoyed it even if I don't understand all it's implications yet.  I will be reading it again....... thinking more on it   God is the Master Scientist and Master Mathematician.  Sometimes He reveals His ways even to the scientists and they don't know it.

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[jackson]

I don't think what Larry was trying to point out is in any way contrary to God or to Ray for that matter.

Let me try to interperet (I'm probabaly way off)

Any belief system when it evolves into an "ism" or a formal system with structure and chain of command by its very nature needs to be self sustaining in order to continue to flourish.  In other words, the actual "belief" it was formed on becomes less important than the performance and endurance of the "system" itself.  Case in point--the modern day Christian church.

In His Grace,
jackson

[Beloved]

I can appreciate Travellarry being excited by this find and do not mean to discourage him but don't some you guys see  ;  We always come back to the same place... when we discuss these topics.

We are not suppose to be concentrating on our "self" any more..we know all all thes "isms" are futile. You are right on Jackson The Church is totally blind and is chasing it's tail.

We do not need a mathematician to tell us this .....Paul laid out Godels theorem when he pointed out "the liars paradox"  to the Greeks  .

Tit 1:12  One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Eubulides of Miletus was a Creten himself and he stated that all Creten's were liars and hence started the liars paradox. Goedels Thereom is based on this and self reference and others. He did not come up with this he just pointed them back to it. 

(Tit 1:9 KJVR)  Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

(Tit 1:13 KJVR)  This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

We look at NASA and all these other science websites and we are are dazzeled .... we are here to share what we have learned......we have already been shown that everyhting is One and...... that Jesus Christ is so amaziningly..... the Way and the Truth....not any other man 

Many here at BT will find Godel works boring (Some mathematicians feel that they have  refuted/disproved his theorem) but look up Wiikpedia I found it interesteing that when he was studying to become a citizen , he found a logical loop hole in the constitution where a dictaorship could be started here in the USA...now isn't that interesting and hit closer to our homes

Beloved

[psalmsinger]

My thoughts on the subject, welcome or not:)  Sometimes I just like to ramble, so if you can, be patient with me.... I'm an unfinished and unworthy vessel still.

Been thinking about this a while and I keep thinking about the old testament vs. the New Testament.  The old testament was the letter of the law
complete with all the rules that everyone can comprehend in the physical, even carnal world.  The leaders of all the world analyzed and finalized, and added their own interpretation's, and even more binding regulations in governmental, educational, economical, and of course the religious systems.  What could go wrong?  What could possibly upset all the theorems, axioms, and "facts", that have concrete evidence in the natural world?  If anything could actually prove the systems wrong, then the whole deck of cards would fall, including the "man" who sits on the throne. Man can't let that happen now can he?  I guess they'll just have to kill all the prophets.  And then Jesus was born.......upsetting every natural law there was even in conception.  His works were against the natural laws, and absolute proof that His Word was Spirit and Truth.  They didn't believe His Works, let alone His Word.  His works in His earthly life broke every physical law, and He continued showing the disciples how He was master over the physical laws even His resurrected body. Try walking through walls, or just appearing out of nowhere.  As Beloved pointed out, Godel's theorem is not a new one.  I guess after  man's world was shattered by the completeness and perfection of Jesus Christ, they just began to build in the physical again, hoping His followers would just forget or die off. The wolves started creeping in even in Peter and Paul's day until it is just like Ray said, worse than before.  The intellectual of the world probably know about Godel's theorem of incompleteness, but they don't care to find out what is "complete".  Perhaps this whole physical creation is groaning for that which makes us complete.  Yes, I think so.  And the perfect and complete will make the rest of this sad, sad world vanity........................that's how we should think of it even now...vanity.  Praise the Lord for His complete perfecting....

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Beloved and Barbra

I enjoyed reading your posts. It reminds me of the words of God, ....he who is for Me is not against Me.....no servant can serve two masters....the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God....

There are the many many called and the few chosen.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Gregor]

Greetings Travellarry,

My guess is that you're trying to show with mathematics a concept of consumation: that when life turns in on itself, it produces more life, but when death turns in on itself, death is no more and only life remains??

But don't let me put words in your mouth. I think we've all waited long enough to hear your "revelation" so please, end the suspense. You'll have to speak in English terms for me though, because I'm no mathematician. Thanks.

Blessings,
G.

[rk12201960]

Hi T,
Don't know about to much stuff here but, where I come from (back in the swamp) 
we just call it Faith.

Gods speed.
Randy.