Another JW question..HELP!!!

[vicolive]

Hi All
As I have stated before I have a freind that is a JW,she has been trying to win me to her side,likewise I have been trying to witness to her.Today I showed her in Is.40-3 in her bible which reads ..make a straight  road through it for Jehovah! then over to Math 3-3 which also states the name Jehovah...{both God} to prove to  her that John was talking about preparing the way for Jesus.....Where it  was fulfiled in math 3-3.She told me that Jehovah was there  meaning it was Gods messenger,Jesusand that they were not one and the same....is she right? I really thought I was going to finally convince her that  Jesus was not a god as they believe.Then she went on to tell me that with my beliefs{as all of yours} that I was not saved and only the JW'S are saved and going to heaven{paradise}
Im really getting bugged about all this,and many of you have reached out to me and I give my thanks,they are so convinced and its scary to think {by what they believe} that millions are decieved by our beliefs and they are the only way
Thanks Vic

[rjsurfs]

Hi Vic,

My concern is more for you than your JW friend... the fact that you are "getting bugged" about all this.  Remember, it is not our responsibility to convert people... that is for God to do only.  So I wouldn't expect you to make any progress in the effort as it may not be God's time to allow the light of truth to shine in this person's life.

You have probably read the Paper "Winning Souls for Jesus" at http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

It is a great read.  Here is a snippet:

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

    "For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? 'GOD'] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty..." (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:

    "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: 'drag him']..." (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:

    "Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to God's judgments and chastisements:

    "That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let's not forget:

    "...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).

Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don't GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.

But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:

    "For ['for' means 'because'] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! 'GOD'] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Bobby

[vicolive]

Thanks Bobby, thanks for the refresher....

[Samson]

Hello Vivolive, 

                    I was a J.W. for twenty years (1983-2003), as stated in my introduction when joining our forum, the main problem with The Watchtower Org is their extreme legalistic nature in that if you don't accept their understanding on every Bible and Non-Bible related subjects, you could possibly be expelled from the Org. This expulsion includes not even saying a common greeting like Hello or any type of minimal association. A Christian might want to limit their association, socially speaking, with unrepentant wrongdoers as expressed at 1Cor. 5 and 1Cor. 6:9,10 because these individuals mentioned in these verses are advocating and practicing these things and could present an unhealthy association, however the J.W's take this avoidance of association to an extreme level. As you can see from your J.W. friends perspective, her form of Non-Trinitarianism differs from Ours. She believes that God the Father and Yahweh are synonomous. When first joining this site, I had some difficulty accepting that Jesus is the Yahweh of the old testament, but instead of letting my emotions get the best of me, I meditated on the information presented by Ray and the point that helped me was that Yahweh is never called God the Father and Jesus said that no one knew his Father, except him, yet people in the Bible knew Yahweh and Jesus. Also this issue regarding the Trinity versus Non-Trinity wasn't that important to me, instead the true meaning of Aion and the fact that God isn't going to Eternally roast and toast people or Eternally end their existence(like J.Ws' believe) was essential to me. You might want to avoid this nature/substance/essence subject regarding the Father/Son relationship, maybe as a suggestion focus on the fact that its' Gods Will that All will be saved and that God loves his enemies like Jesus tells us to. In doing that, I wouldn't mention that Man doesn't have a Free-Will as of yet, that will open up another discussion with no end in site. J.Ws' are trained with a predictable list of " proof text " scriptures on virtually every subject, whenever your able to break that pattern with them, they usually get confused and will probably change the subject. The J.Ws' usually express the thought that " How could a Loving God Eternally Torment a person based on what they did or didn't do during such a short-life". You could possibly use that to your advantage by applying that thought by saying " How could a Loving God Eternally Annihilate everyone based on their conduct in such a short life-span". Realistically all of this is most difficult at best. I would recommend getting information written by former Governing Body member Raymond Franz, he happens to be a friend of mine and I've been corresponding with him for four years. I wouldn't mention to her that your quoting from any of his material, as he is branded an Apostate by the J.W. Org, he is considered one of the Top Villians according to them. I consider him a very good man, even sent him some information about the correct definition of the Greek Word AION. I'm hoping to tactfully present some more of the information on this Site in small doses. Its' very difficult to convince a J.W. of anything, unless their already experiencing doubts or have recently had a traumatic life's experience regarding their beliefs or an obvious Watchtower Hypocrisy, as an example( the recent Sex Scandal in their Organization and the mishandling of it ). I did a thorough research on the J.W,s during my exiting stage and thereafter on practically every angle. Please feel free to ask me anything further, if I don't know the answer, I have the resources to obtain the answer.  Your Brother in Christ, Samson.

[psalmsinger]

Samson,

So I'll ask   Is the Bible New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (old and new testaments) the same as "the common diaglot" a little blue new testament used by the JW's that Ray mentions in his papers?  I probably misspelled the words in quotes.  Is it true that if you leave the JW flock that you are shunned even by your family and parents forever, unless you show their type of true repentance?   Thanks,

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[vicolive]

Samson, thank you, thank you so very much, your post was a great help to me and I appreciate you speaking out,I have  heard of Mr Franz and I agree with you as he being a good man.When all was said and done with my visit,one of the woman stood and told me I was making no sense about God and Jesus,she said I was making God to be like a blob that had things coming out of him{jesus came out of God} I said,,I was and am quite upset with this visit.The reason I allwowed them in still is that I have been searching for the real truth.The real truth is here,on Rays site.My mind was screaming 'God is Love' over and over,but I didnt feel any warmth from this pair.
I ordered a book on Amazon by David Reed,I mentioned this and they got quite annoyed with me,saying that was silly as he will quote in the book as an X husband would talk about me.
I was left a load of books to read,reasoning with the scriptures etc,but to me,all ther stuff is from their bible and thats what I dont believe.
I told them that I had had a blood transfusion a few years ago when I lost my leg in a car wreak...silence....no talking..... but then I was excused from that as I was unconcious at the time........
I can see that they are very set in there ways and as Bobby stated above I can only do the drawing, or sow the seed .I feel I have given it my best shot.
Thank you so much,I may call on you again as they just show up when they please with new reasonings that do confuse me..
Vic

[Samson]

Dear Vicolive,

                      Yes, if you get expelled, they will fully shun you. In the case of severe wrongdoing, ie-sexual type sins, the Elders are allowed to approach you occasionally to see whether or not you want to make efforts to be reinstated, However those that they consider Apostates like myself, David Reed, Ray Franz, Randall Watters, etc, are to be totally avoided, not even saying a simple hello, we are considered spiritually dead and a threat, because we know too much. Also family members are to avoid you as much as possible, with the exception of grave illness or important family matters. Unfortunately many J.W.s that leave the Org, either become agnostic or return to some form of Orthodox Christianity(Trinity, Hellfire, eternal separation, immortality of the Soul,etc.). Insofar as Blood Transfusions are concerned, a Transfusion is actually a like an Organ Transplantation, the blood never enters the digestive system, so it can't be considered synonamous with eating Blood. Most J.Ws don't know that. Also what those JWs' won't tell you is that they are allowed to accept some Blood components such as: Albumin, Immunoglobuliins, Hemophiliac preparations, as Ray Franz illustrates, its like having a Ham & Cheese Sandwich and being allowed to eat the Ham & cheese separately, but not being allowed to eat the bread. Their prohibition against Blood transfusions didn't start until 1952 and may have been influenced by the former Awake Editor Clayton Woodworth who despised the Medical profession, also their second President Joseph Rutherford(died-1942) thought it would create alot of publicity through the persecution individual members who receive by avoiding Blood Transfusions. They use or twist the Scriptures at Gen.9:1-5, Acts.15:28,29,19,20. to support their position on Transfusions. You can go to *not allowed* to get answers on every argument against J.W. theology, but a word of caution, although those who run that Web-site seem to be decent people, they certainly don't believe as we do here, even the essentials, but as a resource for showing the fallacy against some of their teachings like their blood stand, Holidays, the name Jehovah in the New Testament, they have a vast array of information. I consider Ray Franz to be the most objective and balanced source of information available about JWs, check out *not allowed*, thats his web-site.


              To Psalmsinger,

                                     The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson is a good interlinear translation, Ray Smith mentions that in one of his E-mail responses. The witnesses have whats called the Kingdom Interlinear translation of the New Testament Greek, I have a copy and its one of their worst enemies, thats why they don't publish it too much anymore. Insofar as their New World Translation is concerned, its no worse or better than some of the others, my main problem with that translation is that they put the name Jehovah 237 times in their New Testament, when in fact with the more than 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New testament available, their is no support for doing so. In all 237 occurences the Greek words are Kurious(lord) or Theos(God). I admire Ray Smith for using the King James version, especially the older renditions of it, because I think that translation is terrible, except the newer one I have copyright 1979. I wondered why he did at first and he explained it was to reach people like the Apostle Paul, because alot of people don't accept anything else.     

                                              Your Brother Samson.

P.S. I could go on forever(not literally), as both of you can see, but I'm on my way to work, a 12 hr. shift(sad for me).

[vicolive]

Again, thanks Samson......you have been most helpful in this topic.Im amazed at some of their ways,to me its almost as if they walk in fear,fear of the WT,and not fear of God.To shun others and family that way shows not Gods love.I shall read up on Mr Fraz.
I repented of listening to  their ways......
Its strange how it all came about, my mother had just died and in my sadness I was seeking as to where she really was,{in heaven with dad} I thought,until I came across Rays site, I was amazed to learn that she was sleeping,and knew that she knew she  was dying  but not knowing that she was dead.I was thrown  back, I could not believe how I had sat under Pastors for years and not  known this,it made sense realizing that there would be no need of a resurection if loved ones were already in heaven.
I was in prayer about seeking the real truth, that very hour the JW knocked on the door and I told her what I had just learnt...she confirmed what I had learnt,and being in awe of already knowing I had been decieved over the years I  invited her in.She took my ignorance and ran with it.
How ironic is it to pray and your door knock the very same hour,,,,its scary and shows me now how to really...look out for the wolf in sheeps clothing..
Dont work to hard,,,,,,
thanks
Vicki

[Samson]

Hello again Vicki,

                       While perusing around this web-site, making comments on different topics, I suddenly realized that I'm able to read another persons' posts going back in time, you might think, boy he's dumb about computers and you would be correct, as stated when arriving here, I'm new to this personal computer routine, my first computer purchased this past December, went to the Library prior to that. My purpose in mentioning all of this is that I read your old posts regarding your JW friend, not realizing her attempts at (unintentionally of course) misleading you. Some of them are masters at that, if you ever decide to converse with your friend in the future, what I suggest you could do is tactfully put them on the defensive by reading Deuteronomy. 18:21,22, " And in case you should say in your heart, How shall we know the word Jehovah has not spoken, When the Prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the Prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him."  You could continue by asking them why did The Watchtower Org  originally say the last days began in 1799 culminating in everyones destruction at Armageddon in 1914 and changing the beginning of the last days to 1914(this change didn't officially change until the late 1920s'). When the end of this system of things didn't occur in 1914, they moved it up to 1925, when that didn't take place they had smaller prophetic failures of specific dates thereafter. The biggest false prediction of them all was 1975( they didn't specifically state 1975 in their literature, but they said mid-1970s'). They thought that Armageddon would take place followed by the thousand year reign of Christ at that time. They used to believe the saints would be raptured to heaven in 1874. I could write a Book about their false prophetic speculations, many already have. If you get that far, they will usually respond by saying thats' "old light" and proceed to quote: Proverbs. 4:18, The light gets brighter as the day draws nearer and mistakenly apply this Scripture Organizationally attempting to relate this to Prophecy, taking it out of context. Remember this one principle, their old literature is their own worst enemy and this applies to many subjects: End-Time predictions, View of the Holidays, Blood, Subjection to the Superior Authorities(Rom. 13:1-7), Alternative Service during War-time, Smoking Tobacco, Elder arrangement in the Congregations, etc,etc, etc. Their response to that goes something like this, we didn't have a full understanding on these subjects in the past and needed further enlightenment and clarification to develop these subjects further. Thats not true, Bible commentaries that preceded them had the very information that they try to get you to believe they originated and sometimes they drop a previous understanding and years later and return to that same understanding that they had before. George Orwells  Book and Movie 1984 well describes their mind-control techniques. Of course this is true of all legalistic denominations, although all of Christendom is misleading people, they usually give you some latitude in examining other Bible information without the threat of banishment. Instead of the JWS'  literally stoning you to death for what they consider to be serious sins like under The Mosaic Law Covenant, they Spiritually and Emotionally stone you to death.

                              Sorry if I overwhelm you with all of this, just trying to help, whenever this JW topic gets brought up, I can get carried away. I guess we have to put everything in its' proper perspective and remember that all of Babylon is teaching falsehood, anyway, its' just a matter of degree. The irony of it all is that the original founder of The Watchtower Society Charles Russell (who by the way did not start the JWs), it was Joseph Rutherford, began his ministry abhoring the Hell-Fire Doctrine and was against secular names like Lutheran, Methodist, Jehovahs Witness, etc, instead believed in only being called Christians, Acts.11:26. Thats what initially attracted me to them back in 1982, all of us at this Site through Rays example have taken it a much further step than the JWS. One last point that you can mention to your JW friends in passing, Tell them that: " If Charles Russell were alive today, he would be considered an Apostate by the Watchtower Society that he started, on more than 50% of their current beliefs. Samson