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Craig

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Meeting?
« on: January 31, 2008, 09:01:24 AM »

Dear Quentin:  In the three days since we posted our Conference information I have had several people email me asking me to explain to them in emails the subject matter to be covered at this Conference. I will not be sucked into debating these issues for the next year in one-on-one emails. However, since you reproduced a section of my questions, I will make a few COMMENTS to your email...........


 Ray, I have seen the advert on your site for the meeting about the creation/evolution issue, and I have the following comments to make.

 Does the Bible really teach that God created the heavens and the earth in six 24-hour days, about 6,000 years ago?

A plain reading of the Bible, with particular reference to the genealogies etc, would seem to indicate this.

Ray's COMMENT:  A plain reading indicates no such thing. It may be "assumed," but that is not the same as actually being so.

 Did God create 200 billion galaxies with 200 billion stars each in one day, and then needed to spend five times that long creating life and the earth which is trillions of times smaller?

I fail to see why not.

Ray's COMMENT:  You failed to see the implications of this question.  This question has nothing to do with God's ability to much in a small amount of time, but rather asks why God spent so Little time on so MUCH, and so MUCH time on so LITTLE?  It all has to do with what was created in verse one versus how long were the remaining days, etc.

    How old is the Universe? How old is the Earth? How long were the six days of creation? How long was God's seventh day of rest? "One day is as a thousand years with the Lord" (I Pet. 3:8), but how long is "a thousand years?"

The word yom in Genesis 1 is the same word used throughout the OT to mean a normal 24 hour day.


    Ray's COMMENT:  That statement proves absolutely nothing. OF COURSE the word for day is "yom" which is used throughout the Old Testament, but how that that prove that it is a normal 24 hour day?  In Genesis 2:4 day/yom represents ALL SIX DAYS.  In other Scriptures the entire time of the Judgment of nations, and in others yom represents a thousand years, etc.

    How did King David know that the Universe "is spreading out?"

    Are you referrring to Ps104?  There are ten references in the OT to God stretching out the heavens, which reflects the fact that the universe is expanding.  King David, like Isaiah and Ezekial et al, probably knew this because God allowed them to know this.

    Ray's COMMENT:  Obviously it is true that "God allowed them to knows this," but that is not the point of the question at all.  By what knowledge of science or astronomy did anyone know that the heavens are spreading out centuries and millennia before this was scientifically discovered just a few decades ago.

    Where in Genesis are dinosaurs mentioned? Did Noah take a male and female of all 700 to 1000 species of dinosaurs plus 3 million additional species into the ark? Has man ever even seen a living dinosaur? Some ignorantly teach that the leviathan and behemoth found in Job are perfect examples of dinosaurs - nonsense.

This is a straw man.  The flood story in the Bible does not use the word "species" but the word "kind".  On what basis do you assume that "kind" should be translated as "species"?  Also, would you care to list the 3million species which you refer to?  Or just half of them?  How do you know that the 3m figure is correct?

    Ray's COMMENT:  How can you call it a "straw man" when you don't even understand the question. It matters NOT whether the Bible uses "kind," "species," "phyla," "class," etc. The point is clear--Noah took TWO of each to preserve each species/kind/phyla/class, etc.  In modern biology it is the "species" is the category of taxonomic classification capable of interbreeding.  No, I cannot list the 3 million species, nor can anyone else. This figure is an estimate based on the different kinds of species extant today and those that have been found to be extinct. It is obviously either more or less, but if the experts are off by 90%, there would still be 10,000 species X 2 (male and female) = 100,000.  Regardless, IT'S A LOT!

    Did Noah's flood cover the 17,000 foot summit of Mt. Ararat by twenty feet? What about Mt. Everest at nearly 30,000 feet? Was the entire Planet Earth covered by over six miles of water? What does the Bible really teach about Noah's flood?

This is another straw man.  Where in the Bible does it say that either Mt Ararat or Mt Everest existed prior to the flood?  Where does it say that the flood water had a depth of six miles?  The only depth measurement is Genesis 7:20, which states more than 20 feet above the summit of the highest mountain.  But how high was the highest mountain at this time?  The Bible does not tell us, so what and how do you know anything about this?

    Ray's COMMENT:  Actually I know quite a bit about this.  You suggestion is overly preposterous. If Noah's flood produced THOUSANDS OF MILES OF 5 MILE HIGH MOUNTAINS, it would have been such a turbulence, that not even the fish in the ocean could have survived.  Did Noah take all of the species of fish into the ark as well?  (Not to mention what would have happened to all the fresh water fish once all the oceans of the world would have made them highly salty and polluted for one year!


    Did God create the world's mountains made of metamorphic and uplifted sedimentary laid strata, just 72 hours before He created Adam? When was the one mile deep stratification of the Grand Canyon formed and how long did it then take to carve it one mile deep?

  The mountains that exist in the world today may or may not have existed in the time of Adam.  We cannot know for certain, but it makes sense that many of them, and notably the Himalayas, should have come into existence at the time of the Noachian flood, or soon afterwards.


    Ray's COMMENT:  You talk about "straw men."  Wow.  Noah's flood covered pre-flood towns with about 10 feet of mud, it covered the "hills and hill country," IT DID NOT CREATE FIVE MILE HIGH MOUNTAINS AND GORGE OUT 6000 FEET CANYONS. Unbelievable!

    Does Isaiah 48:3, "...I did them SUDDENLY, and they came to pass" really refer to the creation of "the heavens and the earth and all that in them is," as some ignorantly and foolishly contend?

  I have never suggested that Isaiah 48:3 tells us anything about the creation, and neither has anyone else that I know of.  Therefore I will pass on this one.

    Ray's COMMENT:  Well I do know of those who contend that this verse has reference to the creations of "the heavens and the earth and all that in them is" as something that happened "quickly."

    Was the creation of the heavens and earth and all that in them is a very hard thing for God to do? How hard (Jer. 32:17 & 27)?

    These verses tell me that nothing is too hard for God, but you seem to be suggesting that it would have been too hard for God to have created the universe and life on earth within the timescale indicated by a literal reading of the first chapter of Genesis.

    Ray's COMMENT:  I told my Web Master that everyone would miss this one. And notice carefully how you CHANGED the word that I used to one that fits your arguments.  Did I ask whether the creation of the heavens and the earth and all that in them is was "TOO" hard for God?   Well, did I?  No, I assuredly did not. That is why I SPECIFICALLY gave the referent to Jr. 32:17, because just like you, EVERYONE would jump to that Scripture as a contradiction to what I proposed.  OF COURSE nothing is "too hard" for God, but I did not ask that or suggest that. I asked whether the creation of the universe was a "VERY hard" thing to do. Don't you be changing and messing with the words I selected.

    Where and when did God acquire such spiritual virtues as "patience" (Rom. 9:22; Gal. 5:22)? Why would God need patience? God asks us to suffer pain, have faith, and be patient. Does God ask us to do such hard things that He has never done?

 Did God ever acquire the gift of patience?  Maybe he did.  I am not sure the question is important, but I certainly see no reason why the two verses you cite should be seen as evidence for the correct interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis

    Ray's COMMENT:  I likewise suggested to my Web Master that no one would understand the implications of this question. Look up the different definitions of "patience" in a dictionary and you will no longer ask whether this was something God ALWAYS possessed. And of course, you cannot sea the reason why this has anything to do with the first chapter of Genesis, but that doesn't mean that there is no reason. I will discuss it at the Conference.  These questions I present for our Conference subjects were not to explain anything, but to raise questions in everyone's mind as to what in the world is Ray getting at?  It apparently is working.  God be with you, Ray

    I await any comment you may wish to send.
     
    Quentin
     
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