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Author Topic: Creationism theories.  (Read 6369 times)

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Hunter

  • Guest
Creationism theories.
« on: February 01, 2008, 08:19:32 AM »

Hey everyone. I'm not "new" per se, but it has been a while since viewing the forum, and I am glad to be amongst some Bible scholars (as I dub thee). :)

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the upcoming conference.


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Subjects:  *Orthodoxy & Evolutionists are both wrong on Genesis! *Was it "The Big Bang" or "The God Awesome Blast?" *Is matter an illusion? *Why was the earth "without form" (Gen. 1:2)? *How long were the 6 creation days? *What does "evening & morning" mean? *How old is the Earth & Universe? *Dinosaurs are found in Genesis not Job. *Was Noah's flood global? *Did Noah take dinosaurs? *Where did God get patience (Rom. 9:22)? *Was the creation really hard for God? How hard (Jer. 32:17)? I have found Scriptures that will blow you away.
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2008, 10:27:17 AM »

Hey everyone. I'm not "new" per se, but it has been a while since viewing the forum, and I am glad to be amongst some Bible scholars (as I dub thee). :)

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the upcoming conference.


Quote
Subjects:  *Orthodoxy & Evolutionists are both wrong on Genesis! *Was it "The Big Bang" or "The God Awesome Blast?" *Is matter an illusion? *Why was the earth "without form" (Gen. 1:2)? *How long were the 6 creation days? *What does "evening & morning" mean? *How old is the Earth & Universe? *Dinosaurs are found in Genesis not Job. *Was Noah's flood global? *Did Noah take dinosaurs? *Where did God get patience (Rom. 9:22)? *Was the creation really hard for God? How hard (Jer. 32:17)? I have found Scriptures that will blow you away.




I do; it's going to be great! :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2008, 11:10:18 AM »


Hi Hunter,

I see this is your first post, so I'd like to say I'm glad you have joined in  :)

All these things about creation are exciting to me too.  Ray has made comments about how he thinks the Creation came about.
Here is a excerpt from the Dec. Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.0.html --------------

But the word “in” that is in Ex. 20:11, “for in six days” that word “in” if you look at it in your King James it’s in italics, because it is not in the Hebrew and it really shouldn’t be there.  Sometimes you have to add words because it helps the understanding, but in this case it hinders.  Now if it doesn’t make sense or is not proper grammar without it, then you may have to insert it.  There are times you need to do that, because languages do not translate word for word or even phrase for phrase.  But in this case it is not necessary and it changes the meaning.  
So it’s not “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…and all that in them is”  but it should be “For six days the Lord made heaven and earth…”  Now that is a giant difference.  

For six days He made the heavens… for six days He made the earth… for six days He made the sea… for six days He made all that in them - the heavens - the earth - the sea, is.  For six days He did that you see.
It doesn’t say for in six days He did these separate unconnected things.  No, for six days He made the heavens and earth and… He did all that.  For how long did He do that?  For six days!  

Now I hope you all come to Nashville, because I’m going to explain that in much greater detail.  That is an amazing  truth there.  That I don’t think very few people alive have ever seen.  Not “For in six days” but - "For six days God created the heavens… for six days He created the earth… for six days He created all that in them is.”  You say, ‘well how can that be, in the Old Testament it says, day one and then the second day.’  
By-the-way it does not say “the first day,” another big change.  It says in verse 5, “…And the evening and the morning were the first day.”  No it wasn’t, the Hebrew is very specific, “the evening and the morning was day one.”  DAY ONE, not the first day.

Then the second time it says “…evening and the morning”  verse 8, that’s the second day and that’s correct.  In the Hebrew it is second, but the first one is not “first,”  it’s day one… then the second day… third day… forth day.  All these things have meanings and I don’t think most people have ever seen it before.  I certainly did not see a lot of these things before.

Everything made on all six days came into being by means of what was made on each preceding day.  That’s what this fourth commandment says and that is what it means.  That is what is backed up by the latest geological, cosmological and astrological findings of science.  

God finished making Adam on the sixth day, whom He started making five days earlier!  What?  You say, ‘where do you see that?’  It’s in this commandment,  “For in six days the Lord made… all that in them is.”  
One of the things “that in them is,” is man - Adam and Eve.  How long did He make them?  FOR SIX DAYS!  

Are we so foolish as to think that it took only ONE day, Genesis 1:1, to create 200 billion galaxies with a 100 billion stars in each?  But then in verse 2 when it comes to the earth, and down to verse 11, where it starts with the grass and then the animals and man on the sixth day.  Do we think it took just ONE day to create 200 billion galaxies with 100 billion stars each, but it took an additional FIVE days just to make the earth and all that is in it?  The earth is like one-trillionth quadrillionth the mass or complexity of the universe.  So why would it take five times longer to create it?  That doesn’t quite fit does it.  

Boy I tell you there is a lot going on here.  This is equivalent to saying if God took one day to create the earth He would take an additional five days to create a pebble on the beach.  See what I’m saying?  It doesn’t make sense does it. That’s because when He created the pebble on the beach, it was in the creation in the beginning on the first day.  But that’s for Nashville.

So “God created the heavens and the earth… all that in them is… for six day”  How long were these six days?  Were they 24 hour periods?  
It was on the seventh day that it said God rested in the King James.  
Was that a 24 hour day?  If it was, why is He STILL CEASING from His work?  
This Scripture says He is. Genesis 2:2 in the Concordant correctly says;

Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim (God), on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.

So He’s “finishing” it all up in the sixth day and He’s ceasing, that’s the indefinite tense.  He was ceasing, is ceasing and will continue to cease.  It’s not past tense, like most of the Scripture say.  You read those that are aware of this technical difference and you’ll see that it is in the indefinite.  It makes all the difference in the world.
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In Gen. 2 look at the Concordant;

Gen 2:2 …And ceasing is He (God) on the seventh day from all His work which He does.

“Ceasing”  And He is continuing to cease, so the seventh day has not yet ended.
We need to believe the Scripture.  Notice what it says in Romans.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,
v. 19  because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
v. 20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that ARE MADE (past tense), even His eternal (imperceptible) power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

There it is “are made,” pass tense, that’s what I want to draw your attention to. Everything that was made, WAS made - pass tense, it’s already made.  Are there any more things being made?  NO.  Science tells us this too.  There is no new matter or creation, coming into the creation.  Nothing being created nor destroyed, only changed, that did not exist in some form or fashion before.  

When new stars are born it is from the gases and the accumulation of a previous super nova and so on.  They explode and gather back again.  
Our sun was not created as it is today in Gen. 1:1.  It took the whole six days to bring it into the condition that we find it today.  That’s part of the heavens you see and God created the heavens, for six day He created the heavens.  Our sun is not an original sun, it’s like refried beans.  It was part of another sun that exploded through a super nova and now became our sun.  
How do they know that?  Because they know what basically constitutes our sun versus what elements that constitutes other stars.  Our sun contains heavy metals, which original very old stars apparently do not.  There is something that happens when a star burns out, collapses and turns into a super nova.  Then it reformulates some place else, some how, as another heavenly body in the universe.  
I will go into some of this when we go to Nashville.  It is an amazing study.  

But notice in Heb. 4.

Heb 4:3  For we who have believed do enter rest,  as He said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest…

That is one of those half-sentences that I talk about in the first installment of the Lake of Fire.  There are all different forms of signs and symbols and words structures and so on.  This is one of those half-structures, half-sentences.  When He says, “if they shall enter into my rest…”  What?  It just stops, it’s not a complete thought. Now here is what I want to emphasis.

Heb 4:3 … although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.  

Now you all have read that in the pass, right.  How many of you have ever thought about what it’s saying?  “the works were finished” when were they finished?  “From the foundation of the worlds” is what it says.  

When you build a building, is it finished from the foundation?  What are we talking about here?  I  tell you this stuff in the Bible… you just wouldn’t believe, it will blow you away.  As I have said you have got to pay attention to all the words.  “the works were finished from…”  When?  “the foundation.”  Concordant translates that “the disruption.”  Of course the disruption doesn’t have to do with some destruction, but “disruption” really specifically has to do with casting down of seed.  

When a man impregnates a woman, that’s the disruption or casting down of his seed, which is the foundation of what?  A new baby.  
So foundation means conception - the start - the beginning, the conception - the foundation.  How can the works of the creation be finished at the conception or from the conception - from the foundation - from the casting down - from the disruption (Concordant)?  How can it be finished from the start?  What in the world are we being taught here?  
I tell you it’s only in the last 10-20 years that we can possibly know what that really means.  

I’m going to show you where science is not as stupid as most religious people won’t to make it out to be.  All scientist are not idiots, because they believe that the earth is billions of years old and so on.  We need to look at what science has found and see whether or not it’s sound or not.  Some like to speak of ‘science falsely so called’ which is a verse in the King James, but not this King James.  It’s in the 1611 edition, they took it out.  There is no such thing as ‘science falsely so called’ in the Scriptures.  The word in that verse is knowledge, not science.  So anybody who tries to tell you that the Bible speaks about false science, it’s nonsense.  

So you come to Nashville and we will talk about how is it possible that the works were finished from the foundation.  How is that possible… that sounds like an absolute contradiction.  
That sounds like it is saying we were finished from the start.  I finished the race from the start…  I finished it.  Is it a contradiction?  It’s not a contradiction when you understand how the physical universe works.  If God made the physical universe and the laws of physics and the laws of quantum mechanics and the laws of electro magnetism and all that, then they are true and honest laws.  God doesn’t make fake and phony, confusing laws.  
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 11:20:13 AM by Kat »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2008, 11:18:55 AM »

Hi again Hunter,

Here is more from the Mobile conference last year.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html -----------

                           NEXT YEAR’S CONFERENCE

I am going to talk about Genesis the first chapter.  If I can get it done in a year.  I want to talk about the creation days.  How long were the creation days?  When did the dinosaurs live?  How old is the earth and how do we know?  Does science contradict the Scripture? 
This is going to be an amazing study.  This is going to blow you away, because most of you have not heard anything that I’m going to teach.  Some of you have not heard anything for sure, but all of you will learn something that you did not already know. I don’t know of anybody else that knows this right now, except me and I’m thankful to God for it. 
But I’m telling you I’ve had my eyes opened to a few things here this past year and it’s not what everybody thinks. It’s not like the scientist think, that is those that are still under the delusion of Darwinism, the species from a common origin and all that.  It’s not like the preachers preach.  So what is it all about?  Well I’m beginning to understand it and it’s just amazing.  This is absolutely amazing! 

I’m going to cover 2 points here and a couple of hints too. 
If you say, ‘okay Ray, so you’re going to show me that we’ve got historical, scriptural and logical reasons to believe that the books we have in the Bible are books that God inspired and He wanted us to have and so forth?  That these are indeed the Holy Books of the Bible?  But are they really from some supernatural source?  I mean maybe Moses did write the Law and Isaiah did write the books of Isaiah and Jeremiah and Solomon wrote the Psalms, maybe they did.  They are wonderful writings and there are cute little proverbs and clichés and whatever.  It’s all nice stuff, it’s all good, but this hardly tells me that some great Creator God of the universe wrote this.’

I just want to show you 2 things.  Very simple things, but there is just no way to understand it, except that this is come from a divine source. 
So we have the theologians poking fun at the scientist.  They say, ‘it is so stupid that they think that the earth is billions of years old.  Don’t they know that God made it in 6 days.‘

All these theologians they look at all this stratification of the earth that took millions of years to form and say, ‘it was Noah’s flood.  Just open your Bible, it’s Noah flood, it laid down all the stratas, it’s so simple.’ 
No paleface, it’s not that simple. 

The theologians with this simple little fairytale, Jeannie in a bottle theory, is not true. The scientist thinking that all this came about without some sort of superior, intelligent, powerful, almighty, wise source, is also not true.  But there is an element of truth in both.  Theologians except that there is a God.  That He did create the heavens and the earth. 

Evolutionist and/or most scientist will try to tell you how it came about without intelligence.  But much of there research is true.  I mean when they go out and say they found this earth’s strata and based on different isotope measurements of different elements that have radiation.  These things are shooting off radiation at different rates and it can be measured.  They then say this strata is 800 million years old.  800 million!  It can’t even be 8000 according to theologians.  Well is all that scientific jargon gobbledygook or do they know a little bit about what they are talking about? 

I mean it is scientist that invented computers, automobiles, rocket ships and pacemakers.  It is scientist that do this not theologians.  Most theologians do not invent lasers, scientist do.  So don’t think that all scientist are stupid or something.  You know when we say, ‘you don’t need to be a rocket scientist,’ why do we say that?  Why do we use that terminology?  Because to be a rocket scientist you’ve got to have more formulas and more knowledge about physics and quantum math, engineering, general science, specific science and specialized science, than you can shake a stick at.  These men are absolute geniuses. 

You take a rocket ship that weights 100 million lbs. and you lift it up at 3 mph, perfectly straight and it doesn’t waver, they use to.  Remember those early films, they start going up and then off to the side and boom.  Now they make huge rockets, as big around as this room and they just lift up at 2 -3 mph, then they go faster, straight as an arrow, how do they do that?  Well there is a little science involved and it takes more than a child’s really big gyroscope, remember those?  It’s a little more to it than that. 
Many scientist are just geniuses.  If  you have a PHD in applied physics from MIT, then you are in a small category of people, you have got to know something. 

But I’m going to show you 2 things that the Bible says that science has only discovered in recent years.  Moses didn’t figure this stuff out.  He wasn’t out experimenting on the farm, to figure this stuff out, by no means. 

                     THE BIG BANG OR A GOD AWESOME BLAST

Psalms 18:15  Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered, at Thy rebuke, O Lord, at THE BLAST of the breath of Your nostrils.

This is figurative language of course, but lets pay attention to the words anyway.  He is likening a real powerful force as being what?  A BLAST from the nostrils of God.  A BLAST.  You see the same thing in II Samuel.

2 Samuel 22:16  Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuking of the Lord, at THE BLAST of the breath of His nostrils.

Exo 15:8  And with THE BLAST of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together; the floods stood upright like a heap; the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

How?  By the BLAST of God’s breath/nostrils.  So God says He uses “A BLAST” to do big things.  So I’m going to be a little silly here, but making a point as well.  I was thinking the other day, what is the difference if science says there was a ‘Big Bang’ and I say there was a God awesome blast.  What’s the difference?  Can you see the similarity?  Scientist all know now that it started with a big bang, I say could that be like a God awesome blast?  Let’s look at this blast.  Where did they come up with the Big Bang?  The universe is expanding.  When did they learn that?  They really first began to understand that back in about 1960.  I mean I was already full-grown, I was out of high school.  That’s when they really started to understand this, not a hundred years ago, not 2 or 3 hundred years ago, not in the days of Copernicus (16th century Polish Astronomer), not in the days of Galileo (17th century Italian physicist and astronomer).  A couple of decades ago they learned this.  So where did they come up with the Big Bang though?  If the universe is expanding, if the stars and galaxies are moving out….

                      STARS - GALAXIES - THE UNIVERSE

What is the difference between a star, a galaxy and the universe? 
A star is one single body, like the sun.  Our sun is a star. 
A cluster of stars in a given area with a lot of void around it is a galaxy.  Most galaxies have about 100 billion stars.  We belong to the Milky Way galaxy.  It is so big that it take light starting at one end, going at 600 million mph (that is the speed of light -186,000 miles a second), that is like going around the earth 8 times in a second.  So you could travel in a spaceship going 186,000 miles a second and it would take you 100,000 years to reach the end of our galaxy. 
Yet if you back up in space, our galaxy looks like one star.  You got to get really close and you see it’s billions of stars and they are hundreds of millions of miles apart.  But if you back up in space then you will reach a point where our whole galaxy, which is a 1000,000 light years across, looks like one star.  You back up a little more and you can’t even see it.  Then out there, there is other galaxies, that looks like a star from our Milky Way, but it’s not a star, it‘s another galaxy, billions of miles away.  Like Andromeda, that’s one of the closest galaxies. 

So you have one body like the sun, that is a star.  A whole group of stars clustered, is a galaxy.  All the galaxies combined is the universe.

So they discovered that the stars and galaxies are flying apart, at terrific speed.  They learned that through the dipolar theory.  When sound or light is approaching you, the frequency is higher.  If you are moving away from it, the frequency is lower.  What they found is that these distant stars have a lower frequency and so they are moving away.  So if the stars are all moving away from each other, then so many years before that, they were here (hands stretched apart).  Then so many thousands of years before that, they were here ( hands closer together).  And so many millions of years before that, they were there (hands together).  Common sense says if they are going out like this (hand stretching out) at one time they were back here (hands together).  That’s the Big Bang!  It started at a common origin, that’s all it’s saying.  It sounds like a science fantasy, ‘the Big Bang.’  No, it’s just a clever way…by using a statement to show a scientific theory, that if everything is going apart, the further you go back the closer it was together.  It’s only natural that it started at one place and that’s why it’s moving apart from where it started.  That’s the Big Bang. 

Now notice this in Psalms.

Psalms 104:2  Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment, Who STRETCH OUT the heavens like a curtain.

What?  You read that and you say that’s kind of poetic talk of King David in the Psalms.  But it isn’t just King David though.

Isa 40:21  “Have you not known?  Have you not heard?  Has it not been told you from the beginning?  Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
v. 22  It is He who sits upon (it should be above) the circle of the earth…”

How did they know the earth was a circle?  Some of the most intelligent scientist in all of Great Brittan, just a couple hundred years ago, they thought it was flat.  How come the Bible knew it was a circle?  That’s not my point though.  Continuing in verse 22.

“…And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who STRETCHES  OUT the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in (or under).”

It’s like a great tent, under this canopy, this celestial tent.  But it says “stretches” it’s in the indefinite, like the Greek aorist tense.  Much of King James has it properly, some times it doesn’t though, in key scripture lot of times it doesn’t.

John 3:16  “For God so LOVED the world…”  NO, that’s not what it says in the Greek.  He didn’t ‘loved’ the world once and now He doesn’t.  It’s in the aorist tense.  “For God thus LOVES” He loved them, He loves all along, He loves now, He will love in the future.  It’s indefinite, it’s the past - present - future tense.  “God so loves the world…”  You see that’s how it should be translated.  Any scholar knows that this is indefinite.
The Concordant version translates it “who is stretching out…”  Now that really puts it in the present, Young’s has the same.   

Isa 40:22  “…Who is (present tense - now is) stretching out as a thin gauze the heavens…” (CLV)

How could they say that?  How would any one know that the heavens are being stretched out?  Any logical person, being a Godly man or atheist, if he was to consider that somebody did make the heavens, they would say, ‘well up there is a star and somebody made it.’  Where did He make it?  ‘Well right there where it is.’  There are stars on the other side of the earth, looking the other way.  Up there is the moon.  Where did He make the moon, over in Palestine or down in Africa?  ‘Well there, that’s where it is, so that’s where He made it.’  Here’s the sun, well where did He make the sun?  ‘Right there, where it is, that’s where He made the sun.’  Anybody would see that.  That’s the only logical conclusion that your brain could come to.  Where ever it is, if there is a God, that’s where He made it. 

But that’s not what the Bible says.  The Bible says, “He is (present tense) stretching out…the heavens.”  How could they know that?!  The best scientist in the world didn’t know that until just a couple years ago.  This is amazing stuff.  This is mind boggling stuff.  The writers knew that the heavens are moving out.  You can’t see that.  It takes the most sophisticated knowledge and instruments that science could come up with in thousands of years to finally measure that they are moving.  Yet Isaiah and King David they knew it thousands of years ago.  It’s unbelievable, it’s just unbelievable.  Now this is very specific and it’s very scientific.
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I don’t know, it’s just like God shows me things.  Like when I started looking and I wanted to know about the land and the mountains.  It doesn’t say God made any mountains back there in Genesis you know.  He made the dry land and He made the sea, then He made trees and all the animals.  But it doesn’t say anything about mountains or valleys in the first two chapters of Genesis.  You have to go up to Noah’s flood until you find the word mountain.  So when God created the heavens and the earth, did He make mountains?  When He made the earth did He put mountains on the earth?  If God didn’t make mountains, where did they come from?  In the flood the waters covered them, it didn’t created them.  The earth made mountains!  God made the heavens and the earth and the earth makes it’s own mountains.  God didn’t make mountains, He made the earth that makes mountains.  How long does it take to make mountains?  Billions of years.  So is the earth 6000 years old?  No.

Now that was a really fascinating study.  My wife is working on a degree and she has a geography book.  I started reading and I learned a lot from that book.  But on TV they have this series about how the earth and the continents were made.  The earth makes mountains, it then wears them down, then they go under the ground and into the volcanoes and then they come back up again.  It’s kind of like when you make dough, it rises and then you punch it down and it rises a second time. 
Granite for example, where did granite come from?  Granite is a mountain that went through a volcano twice.  How long did that take?  Billions of years.  They know about this and I studied it and I can see it.  You got your igneous rocks, sedimentary rocks and metamorphic rocks. 

But we talk about some of these things and we relate it to the Bible.  We see how God made the universe and the earth and humanity and maybe a little bit of where it’s going.  We are not going to die and go to heaven and sing gospel music on some rock in outer space.  Trust me, we’re not.  That is strictly fairy tale nonsense. 
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I know it takes hundreds and hundreds of years for a acorn to turn into a giant oak tree.  Why does it take so long?  I think part of it has to do with this earth thing I was telling you about.  God takes hundreds of years to grow a tree.  The Bristlecone pine trees in California, do you know that some are almost 5000 years old?  A 5000 year old tree.  It was alive long before Moses came across the Red Sea, it was full grown by then.  Thousands of years old.

Why does God take billions of years to build mountains?  I mean He could do it quickly, but He doesn’t.  That’s the whole point, He doesn’t.  You say, ‘well I wish He did.  It would make more sense if God would do the magic trick, like I always thought.  Boom, there’s the stars, boom the earth, boom the mountains and hills.’  What is greater is how He did do it.

It’s one thing for 100 construction men to go out and they build a big building or something.  It’s another thing to level off a piece of land and carry out all the materials and have the building build itself.  Imagine that.  Just say, ‘okay go.’  Anybody can get a group of men and build a building.  But put the materials out there and I’m going to tell the building to build itself.  That’s what God does.  He says, ‘watch this, I create what’s necessary.  I give the raw materials, but watch this. The earth is going to create itself, over billions of years.’  Why does He do that?  I only have some glimpses into it.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 04:27:53 PM by Kat »
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 02:01:21 PM »

Greetings,
I believe Gen.1 is an overview of the history or "birthing" of the creation plan of God, not the literal creating process. I belive this because of Gen.2:4, 5:

4 This (everything prior to vs.4) is the history (birthing) of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens (see Gen.1:1), 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;

To believe that Gen. 1 is a literal 6 (24hr) days would therefore be a contradiction in the bible according to Gen.2:4,5.

Blessings,
G.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 02:53:10 PM »

I believe that the gem is what Ray has identified as being "FOR SIX DAYS" not on the sixth day!

There has to be much more to reveal out of that observation.

Pretty exciting!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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Hunter

  • Guest
Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 10:58:26 PM »

Thank you Kat for sharing those excerpts. I was a little impatient from excitement to hear about where Ray was going with this, and that definitely quenches it some.

I'm glad that we aren't denying scientific evidence, and still keeping true to the scriptures. That's very refreshing. I don't like hearing evolutionist Christians simply saying: "We don't know how long a day was in the first few chapters of Genesis" and then leave it at that. I knew there was more. And they're certainly approaching it from the wrong standpoint.

So far this approach is sound.  ;)
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musicman

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Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 01:53:03 AM »

I would say that about 95% of people that don't believe in evolution also don't believe in scientific methods of dating.  Neither do they believe in the big bang theory.  Count me as one of the 5%.
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Grateful

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Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 10:46:33 AM »

Hi all !

My understanding of the word 'spirit' comes from my Webster's Collegiate Edition of the American Language, and it is this :   the ORIGIN of the word is "to breathe;  to blow".  Hence God gives the BREATH OF LIFE to EVERY living soul.  And the Spirit is the source of inSPIRation and exPIRation....inbreathing and outbreathing.  Also, "PIR" ("PYR") is derived from "fire".   So, go figure.....

And THAT is why this saying is SO TRUE : NEVER give up hope as long as there is a breath of Life!!     :D

May Divine Inspiration BLESS you today!!!    :)

Linda
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Linny

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Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 12:10:59 AM »

I will be very interested to see how Ray deals with this topic. I have studied Creation Science quite a bit and am going to the new museum in Northern Ky soon. I have heard the greatest Creationist speakers in the world and see the science in it.
I also have studied Evolutionist theory and how the laws of nature don't fit into it. I have learned about how they do their circular dating.
Creationists teach that the moon dust measured 6000-10000 yrs old. They also show how it didn't take millions of years to form the Grand Canyon by showing a canyon that was made in hours.
Again, I will look forward to Ray's teachings and see how they meld with Creation Science.
I will always lean towards Creationism ideas over Evolutionism any day and have great respect for these learned men and women who step out in ridicule to defend our Creator whether they are 100% correct or not.
I saw where Ray said he has studied secular Geology but has he ever said he has studied Creation Science or read any of their books? A close friend of mine has his degree in Geology and found Creation Science to un-do all he had learned in college using science themselves.
Again, I'll be very interested to see what Ray has learned.
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phazel

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Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 12:49:44 AM »

Quote
So it’s not “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…and all that in them is”  but it should be “For six days the Lord made heaven and earth…”  Now that is a giant difference. 

For six days He made the heavens… for six days He made the earth… for six days He made the sea… for six days He made all that in them - the heavens - the earth - the sea, is.  For six days He did that you see.
It doesn’t say for in six days He did these separate unconnected things.  No, for six days He made the heavens and earth and… He did all that.  For how long did He do that?  For six days! 


Forgive me if I missed the scriptural reference to this separation of days.

Does scripture get as specific as Ray seems to point out that for 6 days this, for 6 days that?

 For example,  biblically, however long it actually was, we see a reference to 6 days,  is that  6 days for the heavens,  6 days for the earth, so its actually 12 days,  for the both of them?


Or is the difference only with the word "in"?


I mean if it took me 3 days to paint my house.   Is there a big difference between  I painted my house in 3 days or I painted my house for 3 days?

Of course we can break that down and ask me  "Was you continually painting your house for 3 days"  Or  "Did you paint your house for a few hours a day and in 3 days it was finished".

I think possibly, the typical view is that God did the  **** poof **** thing and the use of the word "in" six days would be the latter of my two questions above.

Science depicts a continual process , so for six days this took place as a continual process.

I'm getting the feeling that Ray is reconciling evolution with scripture, but he just hasn't come out and said it yet. 

The problem with comparing the sciences and the intelligence of the scientists as Ray has done is that there is a large difference between calculating how to lift a huge rocket at 3 mph without it wavering and infering the historical evidence of common descent to our physical origin.   

If you have an atheistic bias to interpreting that data, it could come out the way it has, it may even take intelligence to interpret it wrong so that it seems right.

Also, another problem is that the geological age of the earth and the age of life does not have to be in alignment with one another on one apsect.


We could have 6000 years of humanity, and millions of years of universe.

The metaphorical day could be a inference to the order of events rather than a depiction of literal time.


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Kat

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Re: Creationism theories.
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 11:44:15 AM »


Hi Linny and Phazel,

Here are some excerpts from Ray's 2007 Nashville conference.  He talks a little about the 'six days.'  You can see that Ray is studying what is avalable in both science and creationist thinking. 
But maybe God has not revealed the full knowledge of this to anybody yet.  I believe you have to have God's spirit to put it all together and get it all right. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----

I want to be honest with what I know and what I learn.  But I don’t know where to find it.  I read all these books and all this stuff and most of it is garbage, if you want to find answers.  Now you can learn knowledge, but you won’t get any answers.
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I’m going to open up this possibility, I’m not going to start teaching evolution here, but I felt for most of my adult life.  That the 6 creation days, were not 24 hour days.  And I know I left it that way on my site, because I didn’t want to get into logger heads with some people, since I could not absolutely prove it.  I just said alright I’ll just go along with 6 days.  If the Bible says 6 days, it’s 6 days.  I didn’t tell them how long I thought those 6 days were. 
They feel that evening and morning, sun rise to sun set, ‘that’s a 24 hour day, Ray, how hard can it get?’  But it didn’t say sun rise and sun set.  It said it came to be morning and it came to be evening, and then it says, second day, third day, forth day, but it doesn‘t start off that way.  What did it mean, when it says it came to be evening and it came to be morning, day one, then it was the second, the third and the forth.  What did it mean it ‘came’ to evening and it ‘came’ to be morning?  Well I have some ideas about that.  But I’m not going to talk about that today.  But it has to do with light and darkness, but not a 24 hour day. 

I’m trying to study a little bit on (oh, I don’t even want to use the terms, because people will say, Ray’s starting to study astrophysics) but I’ll say it like this, I’m reading material written by astrophysics, how about that.  And I’m studying morphology, a little bit and into quantum mechanics.
Here is a problem that I see, scientists do not want to acknowledge anything religious, theological, scriptural, or Biblical, at all.  And the Theologians, religions, and Christians pretty much want to reject anything and everything that goes too far scientific for them, ok.  Because both sides thinks they are at logger heads, one with the other. 
The Bible can’t be true, with the 6 days being 6 billion years or whatever, it can not be, just can not be.  How do they know that?  Well because it says, 6 days, so it‘s 6 days.  But a lot of things are called a day, you know.  I covered this at the Mobile conference. 
I can prove on the second page, that these 6 days can be referred to as a day.  We find that in the second chapter, where it says, verse 4  “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in THE DAY that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”
That was on this side of the page, right, in 6 days, “when they were created.”  In “the day” that they were created, singular day.  It’s the same day -- yom, same word translated “day” in the first chapter.  So right here we have 6 days, are called the day, singular.  And then we have a thousand years, is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years (2 Peter 3:08). 
Then we have Acts 17, where it says verse 31  “Because He has appointed A DAY in which he will judge the world…”  In 24 hours?  No!  For the aions.  A day, ok.  Maybe considerably more than a thousand years.  So there is all kinds of uses for the word day in the scripture.  Just because it says ‘day one’ doesn’t mean a 24 hour day.  That is not proof in and by itself.  And we know that virtually everything in the Bible is symbolic anyway. 
v
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Now here is something good, this Philip Johnson, a law professor, at Berkley wrote ‘Darwin On Trial.’  It’s very good, until you get to where he’s talking about religion.  So he’s got his facts down on evolution, better than anybody I’ve ever read.  But then we have original sin and we inherit the corruptible nature and God is one person in 3.  And God created Adam in His image and they were given this great intelligence, knowledge and perfect innocents and purity.  And all this written in their hearts.  No it wasn’t!  But if you want to read it, it’s very good, I just got this a couple of years ago.
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And even this Dr. Stroder I’m reading now, I really like some of his stuff.  I think he is really trying to see the truth of the scripture and science.

So we’re not going to throw religion and science away or one or the other.  Because there is elements of both, that we need to consider.  But I want to also show you, that who do you trust? 
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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