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Author Topic: Ancient Discoveries  (Read 12055 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2008, 08:14:54 AM »

Hi Joyce,

I believe I can, but unfortunately it may turn out to be another lengthy post, I should have something here by late afternoon.

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2008, 06:29:14 PM »

In Acts 17 we read of Paul engaging Jews and Greek philosophers in Athens, the Lord had prepared Paul for His service to Him in a unique fashion not only schooled as a Roman citizen but as a Pharisee's Pharisee.

Act 22:3  I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

So who is this Gamaliel?

Act 5:34  Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

This background was invaluable to Paul as he engaged the Jewish, the Stoic and the Epicureans in Athens. We are all very familiar with the Pharisees but here is a little bio on the others.
 
From; The Ancient Greeks, Dr. C. George Boeree


Stoicism

"Only the educated are free." -- Epictetus

The founder of stoicism is Zeno of Citium (333-262) in Cyprus.  Zeno may have been Phoenician or part Phoenician.  He was a student of the cynics, but was also influenced by Socrates.  His philosophy was similar to that of Antisthenes, but tempered by reason.  Basically, he believed in being virtuous, and that virtue was a matter of submitting to God’s will.  As usual for Greeks who postulated a single god, Zeno did not strongly differentiate God from nature.  So another way of putting it is to live according to nature (“Zen kata physin.”).

The school got its name from the Painted Porch (stoa poikile) in Athens where Zeno studied.  Walking up and down the open hallways, he lectured his students on the value of apatheia, the absence of passion, something not too different from the Buddhist idea of non-attachment.  By passion Zeno meant uncontrolled emotion or physical desire.  Only by taking this attitude, he felt, could we develop wisdom and the ability to apply it.

“Let no one break your will!”  he said. Man conquers the world by conquering himself.  Start by developing an indifference to pain and pleasure, through meditation.  Wisdom occurs when reason controls passions;  Evil occurs when passions control us.

Another aspect of Stoicism is its belief in the development of a universal state, in which all men were brothers.  Stoics believed in certain “natural rights,” a concept which we wouldn’t see again until the 18th century. They also believed in the right to commit suicide -- an important part of Roman cultural tradition.

The best presentation of stoicism is by the Greek slave Epictetus (50-138 ad), who wrote during the Roman era.  There is also a little book, Meditations, by the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius (121-180 ad).



Epicureanism

“The gods are not to be feared; death cannot be felt; the good can be won; all that we dread can be conquered.” -- Epicurus

Epicurus (341-270) was born on the island of Samos in Ionia.  At 19, went to Athens to study at the Academy.  It seemed, though, that he liked the philosophy of Democritus better.  The school he founded was particularly egalitarian, accepting women and slaves.  Epicurus, it is said, wrote 300 books.  Sadly, only fragments survive.

Epicurus had little patience with religion, which he considered a form of ignorance.  He was particularly eager to help people loose their fear of the gods.  He did, however, also say that the gods existed, although they lived far away in space somewhere and had little or nothing to do with people on earth.  Atheism, you see, was still illegal in Athens!

One of the most persistent issues concerning belief in God is the problem of evil.  Epicurus's argument still holds up:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus felt that it was useless to argue over metaphysics, that there was no such thing as a soul that lived after death, that we arrived at our present condition by means of evolution, and that we had the quality of free will.
We can see an almost “modern” materialism and empiricism here:  All things -- including minds -- are made of atoms and follow natural laws.  All knowledge comes from the senses.  Thoughts and memories are nothing but weak sensations....

Virtue for Epicurus was a means to an end.  That end is happiness.  It is good to feel pleasure and to avoid pain, but one needs to apply reason to life.  Sometimes pain is necessary in order to gain happiness.  Other times, pleasure leads to more suffering than it is worth.

And there are levels of pain and pleasure, smaller and greater happinesses.  Friendship, for example, is rated one of the highest pleasures.  “A sage loves his friends as he loves himself,” he said, and “It is better to give than to receive.”  And “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly; nor to live prudently, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly.”  He reminds me of Benjamin Franklin!


Society is seen as necessary:  It protects one from injustices.  He foreshadows utilitarianism by suggesting that a society should be arranged to provide the greatest happiness to the greatest number.

The ultimate happiness, though, is peace, and he borrows Pyrrho’s word for tranquility -- ataraxia.  His motto was “lathe biosas” -- live unobtrusively.  He may be considered the first true humanist, as witnessed by this quote: "Philosophy is an activity that uses reasoning and rigorous argument to promote human flourishing."

The best summary of epicureanism is the epic poem On the Nature of Things by Roman Lucretius (95-52).

Note the practical similarities between stoicism and epicureanism, despite their theoretical differences!  Both were popular in the Roman era, stoicism in Rome’s early, more vigorous years and continuing among the rank and file of Roman citizenry, and epicureanism (even hedonism) behind closed doors, especially at the highest levels of the empire.

Paul was not engaging the uneducated or those unaccustomed to dissecting or debating ideas old or new but in fact lived for this very thing, here is some of their exchange in Acts 17;

                                                                            Acts 17
 
 16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

 18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

 19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

 20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

 21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

 22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

 33So Paul departed from among them.

 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

 This is probably more than enough for now, there are some things from Proverbs, Daniel, etc. that can be added later if there is any interest.

 His Peace and Wisdom to you,

 Joe


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joyful1

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2008, 10:58:31 PM »

okay...so...is that a yes?
:) I'm trying to understand what you believe about our function as priests and kings (if indeed we are so blessed to be part of the Elect).....do we finally RIGHT some of the WRONGS that persist in society-- that is what I am asking.
sorry to be such a pain! :) Joyce
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2008, 08:21:32 AM »


okay...so...is that a yes?
:)



 ;D LOL

Hi Joyce,

You are not a pain at all Sister!

The short answer (for me) is that we are to do the very best possible to instruct our children with skills for existing in this life and also teach them of our Lord and Saviour.

I have some scriptures on my home computer I put together last night, I will post them later today. I am at the office now, getting ready for a potentially busy day.

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

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Kat

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2008, 12:28:19 PM »


Hi Joyce,

I find your question very interesting.  I have also wondered how some of this stuff that is experienced now, while physical, is going to be of any value in the world to come, for those ruling with Christ. 
I mean I spend a lot of time in food preparation; planning meals, shopping for groceries, cooking, serving and cleaning up.  How in the world could that be in any way useful in preparing someone to function as priest or king in the kingdom? 

Well this is how I'm thinking about this.  There is no doubt certain things that God is using in our lives to prepare us for specific responsibilities.  Like Joe was saying about Paul.  Paul's background as to how he was educated and the social life he engaged in, gave him the knowledge and experience he needed to deal with those he would later encounter in his ministry.  I can also see how that will be a help to him when he is ruling with Christ and dealing with these same type people in the kingdom. 
I also think that Christ is preparing His Elect to have knowledge in certain areas. so they can better serve Him in this life and the next too.

But I have wondered about all these mundane things we do and can cooking and taking care of a family really be useful to prepare someone to rule with Christ?  Well I think so, in that everything we do (education, medicine, law or taking care of a family) pretty much relates to dealing with people.  So whatever we are doing, we are basicly learning how to interact with people.  I think our experiences with people in whatever form it takes is invaluable and is the key thing that we are learning.  And that is because those ruling with Christ will be judging the world (1 Cor. 6:2), which means of course that they will be dealing with people.

Actually I think everything we do in this life is of value, the experiences we have both good and bad are learning lessons, because it teaches us something.  I think for those that Christ is preparing, these lessons will be understood and fully developed now in this life. 
Where as for most of humanity I think it is just an experience at this point, valuable none the less, but will not be fully learned until judgment.  That is when the Elect who will be unitied as one with God and can use what they have been taught to judge the world.

I hope I was not too off target with this  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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joyful1

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2008, 01:00:52 PM »

:) by no means, Kat! you are right on! I am thinking the WAY we handle situations in life is so DIFFERENT from the WAY they are handled by others. For instance: you are given a situation where if you were to LIE about something, you might benefit in some way by doing that....the guy standing next to you is presented with the SAME scenario. Now, having been given the GIFT of faith and having been GIVEN the gift of the Holy Spirit, you choose to tell the TRUTH. But the poor fella next to you responds in the same beastly way that you yourself once did and lies! Now you KNOW that he is simply doing what he is only capable of....and you WANT to help him along and show him that he must LEARN to tell the truth! But without the help of the Holy Spirit residing within this guys heart, there is NO way that you can explain yourself. Now....(and here is where being a mom comes in handy) you KNOW that a spanking or other appropriate action would produce the desired result in a child, but you can't do those things with a grown adult! You don't want to just produce "the desired result" ....you don't want to just CLEANSE the OUTSIDE of the cup....you want a heart change to happen...and that cannot happen without the Holy Spirit coming INTO this person's heart.....well....if we become one with Christ and one with the Father, just as Jesus is....then we are also one with the Holy Spirit....and function (in the age to come) as the Father and the Son do....by coming INTO that person and speaking TRUTH to their heart so that they can SEE what needs to be done....I mean...that is where all of this teaching is leading me to go...toward such a scenario....do you get what I am saying? When God is IN the house....it gets run the way it should/ the person chooses the will of the Father. Now God does this mysterious thing in such a way that LOVE enters the equation, this is how I see it at least....and we LOVE His ways....we LOVE telling the truth...it feels good to us...we LEARN righteousness in doing the Father's will. This is just one example...but do you get where I'm going with this?
Joyce :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 06:21:01 PM by joyful1 »
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Kat

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Re: Ancient Discoveries
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2008, 05:50:49 PM »


Hi Joyce,

Yes I see what you are saying.  I think that is what this Scripture in Hebrews is saying.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

I think before anyone can know and love God their heart must be changed, so as not to be enmity with God.

Rom 8:7  because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8  So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But just like with us it will be a process.  God has set aside a whole age in which to do the work of saving the whole human race.

Act 17:31  because He did set a day (G2250 hēmera - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years) in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

So when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth how long will it take for God to be all in all?  Well He doesn't seem to get it a hurry to do these things.  I think Ray is showing us it has been billions of years since the universe was created and man has been in this present age for thousands of years.  I guess the process of teaching all the human race righteousness could take a considerable period of time, but I guess there is time.

Isa 66:15  For, behold, Jehovah will come with fire, and with His chariots like a tempest, to refresh His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16  For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah will be many.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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