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Author Topic: Romans 1:20  (Read 5697 times)

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phazel

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Romans 1:20
« on: February 08, 2008, 01:23:35 PM »


I think verses like this is how free will can stick into our thinking so strongly.

Romans 1: 20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

My specific inquiry is about the last part, "So they are without excuse"  some versions say "so men are without excuse".   This verse is used a lot to show that even though some have never heard the name of christ they still are without excuse to believe.

Well,  considering what I have learned I must view this verse in light of Gods control and our lack of free will.   As with other things, once God gives it to us, it is ours, whether we have free will or not is irrevalent to it being ours.  My nose is "my" nose whether God is in control of me or not.

So with that said,  I get the sense that  being without excuse is a deeper meaning to his teaching.   If we are on a journey for learning then we must possess the tools that cause us to be capable of it.   Verse 21 implies that people knew God based on verse 20  and then rejected him and the implication is that they had no excuse to do so.

I see it as God intends for that (verse 21) to happen, but he has given us the means to understand one day that it is all about him.  Without the possession of knowledge given in verse 20, that could not happen.
I am sure I have over simplified it, possibly, but thats where I am at right now about it.

Thoughts anyone?




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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 02:34:23 PM »


To be "without excuse" as I understand this, is to be accountable! We are all accountable with or without knowledge of God.  :D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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Kat

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 06:23:14 PM »


Hi Phazel,

I tend to have a very simplistic view of these verses.

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

To me this is saying that we all see the creation - the things that are made, therefore because all this exists, we have evidence in what we can actually see in the world.  Where did all this come from?  Evolution, well even that had a beginning.  So how can we not believe there is a God - A Creator of all this. 

... even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

If we have thw evidence by seeing all this creation around us, then we are without excuse, in believing that there is a God that created it.

Rom 1:21  because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

So we know all this came about some how, but foolish people try to say it all evolved or just ignore the idea that they were given this life by a Supreme Being.  And they certainly are not thankful to Him.  So man has come up with unintelligent ideas and their reasoning is futile.  Even those that have never heard of Christ are witnessed to by the creation itself, so even they are without excuse.

Just sharing my thoughts on this  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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phazel

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 06:31:23 PM »



Thank you for the replies.

Arcturas, Kat,   one of my thoughts about that verse in light of Gods true plan for "everyone" is that no one actually does not believe in God in some manner.   It is possibly why we have a verse that states a Fool says there is no God.   Christians may find a use for that verse to insult, but I see it as a simple statement that everyone has some sense that there is something greater then themselves beyond this life whether they openly admit it or not.


I do try to see a deeper meaning to scripture that may or may not be true in light of my original post.

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Chris R

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 09:32:14 PM »

Hi ,

"Without Excuse"   anapologētos, is more in the line of having no "Defense", When God judges the earth, Paul taught us this:

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?   God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.    But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)  God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? [Rom 3:3-6]

There can be NO defense, for God to judge the world with Righteousness.!

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


 Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.-

Chris R
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CEO

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2008, 02:37:21 PM »

Dear phazel,

Who is without excuse?
V 18 '...those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.'
v 19 '... for God has shown it to them.'

Go to v 20 'For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen...'  Who has seen the invisible?  Only those to whom God has revealed; they are the ones given the truth.

This verse is used erroneously to say all humanity is without excuse if we do not worship and recognize God; in reality it is saying those who have been shown the truth and rejected it will experience the wrath of God.  I believe the wrath of God is two fold, firstly man being left to his own devices, secondly a more severe judgment in the second resurrection.

This is a great day to study scripture
Charles O
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indianabob

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Re: Romans 1:20 Children too?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 04:02:02 PM »

Deborah and Kat,

All the responses are helpful to illustrate that "we" who have knowledge, are without excuse to realize that there must be a creator, but many use this to deny a first opportunity to accept God after this present life.
The point they overlook is the death of children and some others who have not a fully developed mind and who therefore have not had any opportunity to see or recognize the creation and be able to attribute it to a creator.  These in my view do have an excuse and they must not be ignored by our God in His dealings with humanity.  It is this misunderstanding that leads some to accept Calvin's view of predestination that leads to believing that God will intentionally destroy or waste billions of individuals.

Please comment
Bob
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 04:33:10 PM »

Hello Bob

For me God is in command of when we live, how long we live and that we live. God is the potter and we the clay. Some get to work out their salvation looking to see what God is causing them to think feel and experience and others think they have to do something to get past the judgment on how they think, feel and act.

Regarding the false teachings of Calvin, I believe that he neither knew God nor did he comprehend the Power of God.

This teaching comes to mind quote : GOD DID NOT PUT ‘ETERNITY’ IN THE HEART OF MANKIND


“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.”  (Ecc. 3:11).

So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation!

We have hundreds of Scriptures that verify the fact that God does do according to His plan and intention, always, and everywhere, but there are few verses as this verse which tells us specifically how He had HID [concealed, obscured] this marvelous operation from the eyes of carnal humanity as this verse does.

But Jesus Christ can set us free from the carnal mind, and give us spiritual discernment, and increase our knowledge, and make us wise so that we can understand. Here then is the revelation of a major mystery:

God uses mankind with his “obscured heart” to do all of His intentions without mankind every consciously knowing that God is working His purpose through them—“so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.”
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

PRAYING BY GOD’S RULES
Let’s now understand this most profound truth. It isn’t just that, "…we know not what we should pray for as we ought…" No, it is much more profound then just that, it is that "….for we know not what we should pray for, to accord with what MUST BE, we are not aware…" Why does the spirit aid our infirmity? What is our infirmity? Our infirmity is that we don’t know what to pray for that will absolutely always be in accord with what must be God’s will, and God’s will is "what must be." And since none of us has perfect foreknowledge of what God’s will must be, God’s spirit aids those who are obedient to Him, in requesting and praying about, the right things, so our prayers aren’t in vain.

It is the will and plan and preordained purpose of God Almighty, that’s what "MUST BE." "THY WILL BE done" (Matt. 6:10). Yes, God’s will MUST be done—always! One day we will all come to believe and appreciate the fact that God is Sovereign. God is always right. God always does what is best and perfect. And so it is vain to pray for something that is NOT "in accord with what MUST BE".

And only then does verse 28 make sense. Things don’t "just happen" to people who love and obey God (as most translations suggest in this verse). No, we should now be willing to accept the truth, "…that GOD [The King James leaves out the ‘God’ in this verse as if things just work themselves out without God] is working all together for the good…" And how is it that God works?

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

And so, if we always pray according to God’s Will, with a clean conscience, obeying the commandments of God, and are aided by the Holy Spirit of God to pray only "in accord with what MUST BE," we will begin seeing answered prayer where we may have been frustrated in the past.
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm


The depths of God! What mortal can fathom them? Who can know HIM but to whom HE would reveal HIMSELF.

Calvin did not have any clue regarding the above teachings and revelations taught by Ray, and I believe  Calvin believed that he had got God all figured out!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 04:45:51 PM »

Great thread as well as responses!

I cannot help but look at much of these questions without looking to the next age where admittedly I do not have much of a clue how God the Father through Christ and His elect will exactly sort things out but we do have this promise of the things to come;


Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The world will learn righteousness, the entire world, past, present and future. Remember only a very few of the few will be saved at the resurrection of the dead, the rest of humanity will learn righteousness. Will there be some who are raised to judgment seek this correcting judgment as others attempt to flee from it? Will some immediately be drawn to the Light as others seek to escape it in the darkness?

I am sure the lesson plan (severity) will be different for John the Baptist versus Adolf Hitler, or the OT prophets verses Attila the Hun or Joseph Stalin. But the fact is other than the elect (the very few) ALL the inhabitants of the world will learn what they have yet to see, hear and understand in their first journey on this earth.

The aborted child or one who dies early in life or had been afflicted with a condition that prevented them from having full functional brain activity will not be under the wrath of God as those who are raised with stony, evil hearts who attempt (at first) to escape judgment.

 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb:
 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now this is speculation on my part but I tend to think that Judgment for some will not be entirely unpleasant and perhaps even as incredible as a supernatural university! The faithful (under the Old Covenant) who had yet to receive The Promise and the innocent, whether it be by extreme youth (died as babes) or by brain injury or total ignorance due to their environment will be taught and corrected by the elect (through Christ).

I know that there were those from ancient days who looked forward to beyond the grave to this judgment and correction. The elect will play a role in it, could that be why the experiences of so many who hear this calling come from so many diverse backgrounds and places?


Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
 
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 05:00:05 PM »

Hi Joe

I agree that some will embrace learning righteousness and others will flee in the opposite direction. :D

Rev 9 : 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.

Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth, banished, driven away.  29. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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Kat

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 05:07:05 PM »


Hi Bob,

I understand what you are talking about.  I believe young children and some others who have not a fully developed mind that die, are not held accountable.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

If someone whether too young or not mentally capable of understanding the law and I'm not talking about those who just do not understand it or maybe have not been taught the law.  But those who have developmental disabilities and are mentally incapable of understanding.  I do not believe these are under the law and therefore are not accountable, how could they be.  God who has given them their lot in this life, would not condemn those that are absolutely incapable of comprehending the law, much less obeying it.

But I believe in judgment they will be given healthy minds and will be taught the laws and how to obey them.  I guess you would say they will get few stripes.

Those that teach the innocent will be torture for eternity will be held accountable for every idle word that they speak.

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Well that's how I see it.  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 06:15:15 PM by Kat »
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sansmile

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 05:48:58 PM »

AMEN   KAT   AMEN


XXX

God Bless you  x
sansmile
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Walk in the Spirit

Martinez

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 06:26:45 PM »

Hi there Phazel.

to my understanding the creation mentioned in Roman's 1:20 has got nothing to do with rocks or trees, although I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from those as well.

I believe that in this verse the creation mentioned here is us.

Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

I have a two and a half year old son who has been and incredible blessing to me and has opened me up to a lot of new understanding as well, especially of this verse.

There is another verse that I think can help us to understand Roman's 1:20


Mat 7:8  For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Mat 7:9  Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
Mat 7:10  Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11  If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!


In other words God is the perfect Father, so if you love your children and your evil, selfish, fleshy men, how much more loving is God than earthly parents!

What's this got to do with the above verse?

I believe what Roman's 1:20 is saying is that God has created us in such a way that whilst we a not a finished work yet, we still bear some of His characteristics for example most people if they saw their child about to be run over by a car, they would not hesitate to dive in front of that car to save them, even if it meant certain death.

God's love for His children is not different from ours, it's just better, stronger, more pure and far superior in every way!

In other words, God's love for His children can be clearly seen in an earthly father and son relationship, same goes for all other relationships as well.

So if you wouldn't consider for a half a Milli second roasting you son of daughter alive for all eternity or even 1 second then where would you get the idea that God would do that to His beloved children?

Can you see now why I linked these to verses?

When God creates its just like any other artist (with integrity intact) He creates from himself, from what's inside.


Jam 3:11  doth the fountain out of the same opening pour forth the sweet and the bitter?

Mat 12:35  The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things.


Nice to meet you phazel and I that helps and doesn't confuse you more!

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gmik

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 10:19:33 PM »

Great posts all! Martinez I love that Matt 7 passage!

Just a thought about the fleeing....I thought that one look in the eyes of the Lamb and all will bow the knee and worship Him.
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