Free Will Question

[Sozo]

Hello all,

I just finished "The myth of free will exposed" section in Ray's "Lake of Fire" series.  In part 3, Ray goes into much detail explaining that now only do we not have free will, but that every choice we make is caused by God.  I do completely understand and agree that man does not have a free will.  The part I'm having difficulty with is that God causes and brings about every single choice that we make.  Rather than offer any philosophical excuse for my difficulty in understanding this, I will offer a verse that seems to state that God does not cause every single choice that we make. 

Ray has provided many verses in his paper that states that God is the cause of all our choices and the Bible does not contradict, right?  So can someone please help me understand this verse...if God causes everything then why did he make this statement in Jeremiah 32:35....

"And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

Here he clearly states that this abomination never came to his mind.  So if this verse is true, then how did God cause it when he clearly states that he had nothing to do with this abomination?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Sozo

[rk12201960]

 HI Sozo
Make sure the translation is correct.
sometimes its the translation thats messed up.

Randy

[Kat]

Hi Sozo,

I'm glad you have joined us here on the forum  
I think Randy is right, your question had to do with the translation of the word "mind."

Jer. 32:35 ...which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind (3820), that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

H3820
labe - inner man, mind, will, heart:

Ray has an email where he brings this out.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2143.0.html ---

 I have also covered Jer. 32:35 in the past. The word translted "mind" in Jer. 32:35 is not the Hebrew word for mind, but rather "heart."  It did not enter into God's "HEART" these evil things, whereas He certainly knew in His MIND that men would do this.

   God be with you,
   Ray

[Sozo]

Thanks for the replies.  I did go check and see where this word could have been better translated as heart rather than mind.  However, I am still having some difficulty with this teaching of God causing and bringing about all of our choices. 

In Jer. 32:35, you can see that God was disgusted at the actions of these people.  I can understand that he knew what they would do, but did he cause them to do it?  Did he cause those people to roast their babies alive?  If the answer is yes, then why would he be so upset with them?  They did exactly what he made them do.  Wouldn't that also mean that in all actuality God was the one roasting their children?  For example, if I hired a hit man to "off" someone, then I would be just as guilty of murder as the hitman. 

Let me give another scenario....I have a wife, 2 sons and a 6 yr old daughter.  What if some thugs broke into my house one night and overpowered us, killed my sons and brutally raped and murdered my wife and baby girl.  Now would I be wrong for blaming God for this horrendous event since he caused it to happen?  Again, I can understand if he knew that something like this would happen, but did he actually cause it?  Did he send those men to my house to perform this evil deed?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm having a little trouble with this teaching.  Maybe one of you could give me a little more insight.  Thanks again,

Sozo

[rk12201960]

Hi Sozo,
Things of God only come in Gods speed.
I think you might be trying to figure this out with human reasoning.

God created everything, yes?
Because of God you are here right now.

God caused the King of Egypt to do things to Gods people.
He hardend his heart.

Ray really brings these points out. Maybe read LOF again.
Build up you foundation on things you can grasp and work from there.
Don't build the roof first as its hard to build under such a large weight.

I would also pray about such things.
I'm not trying to be mean but its hard to help one understand until Gods shows them himself.(In spirit)

Gods speed.
Randy

[Little Joe]

Thanks for the replies.  I did go check and see where this word could have been better translated as heart rather than mind.  However, I am still having some difficulty with this teaching of God causing and bringing about all of our choices. 

In Jer. 32:35, you can see that God was disgusted at the actions of these people.  I can understand that he knew what they would do, but did he cause them to do it?  Did he cause those people to roast their babies alive?  If the answer is yes, then why would he be so upset with them?  They did exactly what he made them do.  Wouldn't that also mean that in all actuality God was the one roasting their children?  For example, if I hired a hit man to "off" someone, then I would be just as guilty of murder as the hitman. 

Let me give another scenario....I have a wife, 2 sons and a 6 yr old daughter.  What if some thugs broke into my house one night and overpowered us, killed my sons and brutally raped and murdered my wife and baby girl.  Now would I be wrong for blaming God for this horrendous event since he caused it to happen?  Again, I can understand if he knew that something like this would happen, but did he actually cause it?  Did he send those men to my house to perform this evil deed?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm having a little trouble with this teaching.  Maybe one of you could give me a little more insight.  Thanks again,

Sozo

Sozo,

I can't answer your specific example, but what I like to do is give the best example I can think of of an evil act that served God's purpose, and that was the cross.  Their is no question, if your a believer that Jesus Crucifixion was in God's perfect plan, correct?.  Yet how many sins, or evil acts, were committed to accomplish God's perfect plan of salvation?  There was betrayal, abandonment, fear, denial, false witnessing, hatred, torture, and of course murder, to name a few.  Yet, in each case, God did not make the person sin, they sinned because it was in their wicked heart to do so, and their circumstances were such that they gave in to the weakness of their flesh.  Yet, it was indeed in God's perfect plan for them to do so, or else the Crucifixion wasn't possible.   So, evil is necessary for God's plan to be accomplished.  He knows the beginning from the end, every event  they will happen, has happened, and is going to happen, yet somehow, every event is connected so that His perfect plan to redeem mankind will be accomplished.   You just can't isolate one event and say, "God had made an exception in this case to make this happen", no every event is connected.  Kinda like the movie, "the Butterfly effect".  I don't know how He does it, but that's why He's God, and I'm not.  "His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways". 

That's the best I could explain it, I hope that at least partially answers your question.

[gmik]

Sozo, I regularly struggle w/ this.  I will start to build MY case that God just couldn't cause my drunken neighbor to hit a car and kill 4 children and the mom.But then I go back to scriptures and how Ray teaches on it and I see the Words and they make sense in my heart.

In Baltimore at the funeral of the family, that Phelps (?) church that pickets soldiers funerals and stuff, well they picketed that one too, saying that God caused their deaths to punish Baltimore for siding w/ gays or whatever!! Well, instantly I knew that I couldn't be on that churches side for 1 second.  But then, darn it, I realized yes, this was in God's will.  For the life of me I can't see why, but as Little Joe says, His ways aren't our ways.

So I believe it but my flesh struggles w/ it.  I believe that the more I read and study it will be revealed to me when God is ready for me to absorb it.

God did make some pottery for evil.  And God did create Evil.

These are hard sayings and it takes awhile sometimes to get all the years of Christendom's teachings purged out.

Just my opinion

[Sozo]

Thanks for the comments.  This one was especially helpful:

Yet how many sins, or evil acts, were committed to accomplish God's perfect plan of salvation?  There was betrayal, abandonment, fear, denial, false witnessing, hatred, torture, and of course murder, to name a few.  Yet, in each case, God did not make the person sin, they sinned because it was in their wicked heart to do so, and their circumstances were such that they gave in to the weakness of their flesh.  Yet, it was indeed in God's perfect plan for them to do so, or else the Crucifixion wasn't possible.   So, evil is necessary for God's plan to be accomplished.

Even though the sin was part of God's plan, God did not make the person sin.  The person sinned because of his wicked heart.  Is this in agreement with scripture? Is this what Ray is teaching here?

[musicman]

Remember what Ray says about God and evil.  It is not God's will but His purpose or design.  God creates the evil things with His hands, not His heart.  We are to pray that God's will be done in our lives.  I don't believe that He wills bad things to happen to us but His purpose for us at the moment might be for evil.  Therefore, pray that His will be done.  That way we are asking for the best possible results.  Afterall, God's will for the perfection of all will be done, but God is patient and has many things happen at the moment that go against His will.  To really enjoy the good things we must experience the bad.

[rk12201960]

Here is an email I was directed to.


      EMAIL TO RAY
Dear Marc:
I will make a few COMMENTS to your unscriptural assertions in your email.....



      Mr. Smith -
     
      After reading many of your articles I cannot help but to see the Gnostic flavorings in your teachings.  Although you adhere to none of the so called "Gnostic sacred scriptures" you read and interpret the authorized canon in the same type of manner as do the Gnostics.  Much is not taken literally and much is the "inner" personal Armageddon of man.  This is not why I am writing to you though, the reason is Predestination vs freewill.
   
 
    COMMENT:  Do you have "one" example of what you say?
   

      I have read your papers on freewill and right off noticed that you have chosen one teaching in the scriptures (Predestination) over the other teaching (God holds man responsible due to his own will.)
 
   
    COMMENT:  "Predestination" is taught throughout the Scriptures. "Responsibility" is no where taught in the Scriptures--man is held "accountable" not responsible, and yes there is a difference in the two words.  No where does the Bible teach or use the term "FREE" will, so why you?  So what you are really accusing me of is this: "You, Ray, have chosen what the Bible teaches over what the Bible DOES NOT TEACH, and I [Marc] feel you are wrong for doing this--you are like the Gnostics!"
    Me thinks that you are not accurate in your statements, neither fair.
     

      You, in my opinion, have failed to connect these two teachings in a satisfactory manner.

     
    COMMENT:  Are you crazy?  How does one "connect properly" a Scriptural truth with a man-made falsehood?
     

      In the words of Rev Spurgeon
   

    COMMENT:  " He sent redemption unto His people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and REVEREND IS
    H-I-S  NAME" (Psalm 111:9), not heretic Spurgeon's name. reverend

     
     in which I believe he was being so very honest with himself, he stated:   â€œThe system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.  For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him who hears say, Come.  And let him who is athirst, Come.  And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely [Rev. 22:17].  Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that it is not of he who wills, nor of he who runs, but of God Who shows mercy [Rom 9:16].
   
 
    COMMENT:  Spurgeon admits that these two two Scriptures are true, that is "straight lines," and then proceeds to to tell us that THEY ARE CONTRADICTIONS!  "Freely" [Gk: 'dorean'] means gratuitously--without a COST, not by mans' "free will." That is unscriptural nonsnse to suggest that man's free is at work in this verse.  WHO is the water of life?  Is it not Jesus?  Can anyone come to Jesus "by his own FREE will?"  "No man CAN come to Me [Jesus] except the Father draw him [Gk: drag]...." (John 6:44).   Of course what good is there in me quoting Scriptures to the great Spurgeon seeing that he believes these "straight line" truths of Scripture CONTRADICT?

     
      I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will.
   
 
    COMMENT:  Spureon sees this in his own God-defying, God-rebelling, carnal MIND, not in the Scriptures (Rom. 8:7).

     
      Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.  That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly.
     

    COMMENT:  What?  What?  WHAT??  Few people can see these contradictions "clearly" as Spurgeon does?  Can you not recognize a lying, two-faced hypocrite when you are reading his damning contridictions right in front of your eyes? Man is not "responsible." Show me that word in the Scriptures?  Man is accountable, and not because he could have done differently, but because he sins willingly from his own heart, and this is wrong; he must be corrected in judgment for this.

     
      They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not.  The fault is in our weak judgment.  Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.
     

    COMMENT:  Excuse me, but where did he present "two truths" in his statement? He presented one "God predestinates" and then assumes a falsehood "man is responsible" to be the second truth.
     

      If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each otherâ€? (Charles H. Spurgeon, Autobiography Vol. 1: The Early Years. pp. 173, 174).
   

    COMMENT:  You did not carefully read my paper on "free will."  At the Cross Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who took part in His crucifixion. Why did He as this prayer?  (Luke 23:34)--"Father forgive them for they KNOW NOT what they do...."  Could these sinners have "resisted" by means of their fabled "free will," being partakers in this crucifixion?  No, no they couldn't have, but do you believe the Scriptures?

    Jer 13:23--" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard l his spots ? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

    Neither Spurgeon nor you apparently believe any of these dozens and dozens of Scriptures I presented in my paper.

     
      Your view of "Absolutes and Relative" verses in the scriptures hold no more water than the argument the free will believers put forth.  You have both chosen one teaching over the other.  The problem as I see it is how can you determine what is to be an absolute and what is to be considered relative.  Like the Apostle Paul in many of his epistles states "Predestination" and then also in many of his epistles worries about being "cast away" by his own will/actions.  Did he really not believe that he could be cast away as he put it?  Did he write that just to fill space as he did in many other pIaces in his epistles?  I mean out of anyone it was Paul who championed the issue of predestination the most in the scriptures.
     

    COMMENT:  Once again, you assume that there is a contradiction in Paul's thinking based on human carnal reasoning. YES, Paul believed that God Predestines all things.  Therefore Paul absolutely knew that all whom God has predestined to be saved WILL BE SAVED.  But God never told Paul that he was one predestined to be saved, and therefore could never, nohow fall away. In fact God has not told any of us that. That is why the Scriptures tell us that JESUS know those who are His. We don't. We hope. We believe. We never let down, because He has not told any of us for an absolute certainly that we will not fall or fail. There are those whom God will predestine to start out doing His will, but who will be predestined before the end of their lives to fail. That is why God has given us such Scriptures as Heb. 10:26-29 and I Cor. 9:27.

     
      Just one of the many paradoxes in the scriptures, like the ever favorite, our we saved by faith or by works?
     

    COMMENT: How can one "study" the Scriptures and not know the answer to your invented "paradox?"  Is there a Scripture that tells us how we are saved?  Yes there is:  "For by GRACE [not 'faith' as you state] are you saved THROUGH faith...." (Eph. 2:.  Now then, shoe me a Scripture that states "For by WORKS are you saved....?"  Do you have one?  Then HOW, pray tell, is this a "paradox" to you?
     

      Doe's God choose our destinies or do we?, our we saved by grace or by deeds/actions?  Paradox after paradox.
     

    COMMENT:  I do not even know where to begin with such foolish and unscriptural assertions. GOD, of course, chooses the destiny of all humanity (I Cor. 15:28, and a hundred like it).  There is no Scripture which says we are "saved by works," so why do you suggest it.  James assures is that if we HAVE NO WORKS, it is proof that WE HAVE NO FAITH. He does not suggest that we are "saved BY WORKS!"  You, nor Spurgeon, nor any of the false theologians of Christendom have a clue as to what "grace" is.  "For the GRACE OF GOD...TEACHES [Gk: chastens, corrects, instructs, etc.] us that...we should live SOBERLY, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present age" (Titus 2:11-12).
     
    If you are not living "SOBERLY, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY," then you are not being graced by the grace of God, plain and simple.
    People fail to read verse 10 after reading Eph. 2:8.  Verse 10 states: "For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: 'achievement'--we are not OUR OWN FREE WILL achievement]...H-I-S  achievement, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained ['before ordained' means 'PREDESTINATED'] THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM."  Walking in Good works is the result of being graced. If you are not walking in good words and godly living, then you are NOT being graced by God--James understood it and Paul understood it, but Spurgeon has not a clue.
     

      To the natural mind these issues contradict each other
     


    COMMENT:  The first and only true thing you have said so far. "For the carnal [natural] mind is ENMITY [hatred] toeard God, for it is not subject to the law of God neither is it able" (Rom. 8:7).  Which only proves that Spurgeon and all who think that crooked lines are truths of God, are yet carnal.
     


     and no matter how many "theories" that I have heard over the years to try to reconcile these seemingly contradictory teachings one (who is honest with himself) still walks away saying "Huh?  I still just do not get it."  How can we be "Predestined" (as the scriptures teach) and yet still be held responsible for our actions (also clearly taught in the scriptures).  How can we be saved by faith (again as taught in the word) "apart from the law" when the scriptures also plainly teaches us that only those who are "overcomers" and keep the law will enter into life?  How can both sides of these many paradoxes the scriptures put forth both be correct?  One teaching, again to the natural mind, seems to nullify the other.   These have as long as I can remember plagued me in my search for the truth.  The above article offers a third view to these paradoxes that although I am no t fully convinced it is the right one, it doe's seem to make a little more sense than what I have heard in the past.  I do know one thing, something is missing and to quote Mr. Spurgeon, "it is my own folly that prevents me from seeing it" for I know that the scriptures are indeed the very words of the Living God.   
     

    COMMENT:  Clearly you don't "get it."  I do, and I thank God for it. I dont know what else I can tell you. I gave you 120 pages of Scriptures in my paper on free will, and if you don't get, then you don't get it.
    God be with you,
    Ray

    Marc
-------------------------------------------
Hope this helps.
Randy
PS found on.... emails to Ray
# 69

[Little Joe]

Thanks for the comments.  This one was especially helpful:

Yet how many sins, or evil acts, were committed to accomplish God's perfect plan of salvation?  There was betrayal, abandonment, fear, denial, false witnessing, hatred, torture, and of course murder, to name a few.  Yet, in each case, God did not make the person sin, they sinned because it was in their wicked heart to do so, and their circumstances were such that they gave in to the weakness of their flesh.  Yet, it was indeed in God's perfect plan for them to do so, or else the Crucifixion wasn't possible.   So, evil is necessary for God's plan to be accomplished.

Even though the sin was part of God's plan, God did not make the person sin.  The person sinned because of his wicked heart.  Is this in agreement with scripture? Is this what Ray is teaching here?

Yes, this is the way I understand what the Scripture teaches, and how Ray interprets it.  Maybe the mods would like to comment.

[Kat]

Hi Sozo,

I found these emails that I think will help with what you are having trouble with.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#calamity ---------------------------

So many Christian teachers are so willing to lie about the word of God.  This is not a slip or a mistake on the part of this teacher. This teacher is deliberately lying and deceiving on this matter.  And how can I say that? I don't need to say it, the teacher himself has admitted it. He said:  "The word rendered evil in the KJV is better translated calamity."  Now then, how could he say such a think except that he LOOKED AT THE HEBREW WORD rendered evil and found proof that it would be better translated "calamity."

But this is not possible.  Let me prove it to you.

Look up the word "calamity" in Strong's Concordance and you will find that calamity is found 19 times in the Bible, all in the Old Testament. Three times calamity is translated from the Hebrew word "havvah" and it means "ruin or calamity."  Sixteen times calamity is translated from the Hebrew word "eyd" which is defined as "oppression, misfortune, ruin, calamity and destruction."  And here is an example of how it is used in Scripture:  "I also will laugh at your CALAMITY" (Prov. 1:26).  God is not going to "laugh at your EVIL."

Now then, what word did the Holy Spirit of God inspire to be used in Isa. 45:7?  Was it "havvah" or "eyd" which really does mean "calamity?"   NO.  It was another word.  And what word might that be?  Well, it would be the word "ra" which means "bad or evil" and is translated "evil" FOUR HUNDRED AND FORTY-TWO TIMES in the Old Testament!!

Here are just a few examples of how this word is used:

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of the life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and EVIL" (Or does anyone think it should be "the tree of knowledge of good and CALAMITY?" (Gen. 2:9).

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only EVIL continually" (Or does anyone think that God say, "...his heart was only CALAMITOUS continually?" (Gen. 6:5).

"Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some EVIL beast has devoured him..."  (Or does anything that that they really said, "Some CALAMITOUS beast has devoured him...?" (Gen. 37:20).

Look up EVERY one of the 442 verses where "ra" is translated evil, and you will easily see the truth of this word. "Ra" never, EVER, means "calamity."  So don't let these lying weasels deceive you into believing their deceitful and unscriptural heresy.

God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ----

I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it.  God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.

Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).

But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.

God be with you,
Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

Little Joe

Just some thoughts....It is good that you discuss this topic....
I believe the way you understand this now is the way it is taught and meant.

This has been a most edifying, encouraging and enjoyable thread. You ask : Even though the sin was part of God's plan, God did not make the person sin.  The person sinned because of his wicked heart.  Is this in agreement with scripture? Is this what Ray is teaching here?

My answer to you is YES!

Man acts out his wicked heart. To some God shows this to him and man repents, changes and advances into conformity with the image of Christ. To many others who are not repentant, do not see or understand that they are doing anything wrong... such persons are reserved for the wrath of God in the White Throne Judgement.

Those who are repenting and being judged now, will not experience the second death. God chooses who will be shown His Mercy at the White Throne and who are now receiving repentance by Gods Grace and Divine influence on their hearts now.

Not all who are called are chosen. GOD calls the shots. He hardens who He will and brings to repentance who He will. His Plan is that ALL will be saved. Some are being prepared for the salvation work ahead with Christ through Grace of God, and others are being left for the salvation experience of Gods Mercy in the LOF.

Peace be to you.

Arcturus

[JimH]

Hi Sozo,

   I've been here for only a short time, I haven't introduces myself yet, I'm trying to figure out how. Anywho I would like to give my thoughts on what you wrote. I've looked at this free will thing for awhile now and tried to figure it out, our minds can't really understand it, so we must go by faith that God knows what He's doing. This is an exampled that has helped me, I don't know if the Lord gave it to me or I heard it from Ray. Picture this, us human beings are pure evil, our hearts are wicked (God is in the process of forming us into His image), if we were left completely to ourselves without any involvement from our Creator, there would be no limit to what we would do. So then our Sovereign God has to perform his plan for mankind (His ultimate goal for us) controlling our wickedness to reach that, he keeps us from doing things he doesn't want us to do and He causes us to do (good or evil) things that He wants us to do, ALL to fulfill His plan. Once we are made into His image He won't have to use our evilness anymore because His goal has been accomplished.

  Another thing about free will that has helped me, and again I don't know where I got this, is when I realized that God can't perform His plan if someones Else's free will can come in and change it. For someone to be able to rape my daughter purely of his free will apart from God's will for my daughter tells me that God not is Sovereign, either He is or isn't there's no in between.

  This and many other things has helped me, Rays teachings and many scriptures Just seemed to fit together, as mentioned earlier it will only take the Lord to help us understand Spiritual truths, at least to put it all together.

May I say a quick word about that, just like the people before Christ didn't understand the truth but had a form of godliness and religions, (they were looking for a King not a sacrifice) the same today, people worship from what they think they understand about God, but they don't have a clue, as Ray says it, they are worshipping the shadow

I pray the Lord can use my words as a small part to help you

JimH   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello JimH

What you say is beautifully expressed  : God can't perform His plan if someone else's free will can come in and change it.... free will apart from God's will tells me that God is not Sovereign, either He is or isn't there's no in between.

Welcome to the Forum!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi JimH,

Just go over to the introduction board and click on new topic, and you can tell us a little about yourself 
Here's the link to that board
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,8.0.html

You explantion was quite good, you made some really good points.  But we are not really "pure evil."  Here is part of an email that Ray explans this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6383.0.html ----

Actually Jer. 17:9 does not say that "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately WICKED."  The Hebrew reads:  "The heart is deceitful above all things and is EXCEEDINGLY WEAK."  We are all human;  we all have a heart;  we're ALL ARE EXCEEDINGLY WEAK. 
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Glad you have joined us hope to hear more from you soon.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GODSown1]

Amen Little Joe,
                    I beleave little Joe answered it well in his first Post, All is of GOD, I personally look back on my lifE & C @least 4 major turning points in my life d@ @ da time if I new GOD & our SAVIOR az I do now I wouldve jus thort WoteVa! how could dea b a GOD 4 all dis 2 hav happened 2 me, But! now I look @ dem dey were da Best finGz d@ couldve happened 2 mE, 4 me 2 b where I am 2day, PraisE GOD most assuRedly!, ( jus a quick backrownd of myself, I waz a Gang member for Ova 20yrZ frm 1981-2003), 2005 I was woken up 2 da Fact der is a GOD, & HE is sO in ControL!, AlwayZ!!, GOD BlesS sozo GOD will Reveal all 2 U in HIS Perfect Timing, PeaCe 2 U & urz..
                     much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. Welcome JimH, & Amen! 2 ur Post, GOD BlesS! u

[Phil3:10]

It is hard for the carnal man to accept the truth that all is of GOD. I am so thankful that I am where I am in my life as far as living where I live, having the parents I had, being blessed in so many ways. Why did GOD bless me so much? I could have been born in a third world nation and at the brink of starvation with a life expectancy of 30 years. When I witness the suffering in this world it is hard to understand the mind of GOD. I don't think it is possible for carnal men to understand GOD'S ways. If we could unconditionally accept his will, even when we suffer, we would have that peace that passes all understanding. I choose to believe that all is of GOD, the good, the bad and the ugly.
All is left up to HIM, HIS ways and thoughts are so far above mine that their is no measurement known to mankind capable of measuring same. All we need do is to look around us and no matter the pain, hurt or evil we see just remember that 'there for the grace of GOD go I'.
This life is full of trials but look at the promises we have to look forward to.
Phil3:10

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi there,
           the way I see it my friend is that we do have a will and your scripture reference is vallid, just because our will's are not ultimately out of the soverign duristiction of God's will doesn't mean we cannot be held accountable for our choices which are our own choices in any given situation that God puts before us on a daily basis. If we make godly choices we grow closer to God and conversly further away from Him if we make bad choices.
           We still have authority on this earth from Adam over all the creation creatures but we do not have soverignity. God through Jesus is drawing us all towards him, steadily and in due time until all are reformed and the restitution of all things is complete.
           I hope this may be of some help to you my friend, I will be glad to expand on what I have said if it has been of some help to you and you would like to reason together with me further on God. Nonetheless God's will be done. I pray God will continue to give you eyes and ears to see and hear the things that the spirit of God is saying to you. Amen.