Men and Women Roles?

[Origen II]

Do you believe that men and women have different roles? I do. Everytime I bring this up people call me "sexist". I don't understand why. All I believe is that man and woman were designed differently for different task. I believe they both have equal responsibilities in different categories and need to stick to how they were designed.

And I feel offended when a woman asks me sarcastically: "So you believe that women should just stay at home and have kids?"

No. I don't believe women should be prisoners...but why is it these days that raising children and taking care of the family is a CURSE?

If many women really think this way then they shouldn't have children.

[Gill]

No. I don't believe women should be prisoners...but why is it these days that raising children and taking care of the family is a CURSE?

Well, i think you must be talking about a two-parent family with two incomes and probably living in a wealthy, western culture etc. so ...short answer is money.  What's actually best for the family often gets put behind those 'must haves', mortgages, holidays, people carriers, etc.  Pressure for a mother to work comes from many other sources though ...
- her own selfish ambition to 'be somebody'
- her partner
- society: raising a family isn't seen to be as useful as contributing to the government's coughwar-chestcough / economy.

Edit: Just wanted to add ~ if the needs of the family and household are being met, there's nothing wrong at all with a mother working; Prov 31 gives examples of a virtuous woman doing just that.

[hart4god]

are we talking biblical roles or cultural expression?

I KNOW the profound impact women and mothers have on guiding the home and raising the kids. Most all the women I know, whether fulltime in the marketplace or fulltime in the home are deeply committed to their resposibilities to their families and husbands. How they express their committment is between them and the Lord? Or so I think. There is a lot of harshness and judgement between the two groups, yet they have the same goals of having loving relationships and godly offspring. I admire them all. They all make sacrifices for their loved ones.

the quandry I encounter is the bias (?) of the church re: women as second-hand creations.

warmly,
hart4god

[Origen II]

Be reminded that I am not attacking single parents or women that HAVE to work in order to support the family.

I'm speaking of the rest.

[Steve Crook]

I wouldn't say second-hand, but certainly second of the same hand.

Gen 2:21-24
(21)  And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
(22)  And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
(23)  And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
(24)  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The whole spiritual relationship between our Father and Christ, Christ his Bride(the CHURCH), and the husband and wife, why is being second a BAD thing??

Because our Father said so?

Without Christ being at the forefront of the husband's very being, then the whole idea that the husband IS the head of the household is not going to work.

Our Father IS the Head of His Body, Christ.
Christ IS the Head of His Body, the Church.
The husband IS the Head of His Body, his Wife.

1Co 11:3
(3)  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Eph 5:23
(23)  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.


If Christ is IN the husband, then the husband will LOVE the wife AS HIS OWN BODY.  pay close attention to the order in which things MUST occur in order for the relationship to be correct and healthy.

Eph 5:20-33
(20)  Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
(21)  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
(22)  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
(23)  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
(24)  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(25)  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(26)  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(27)  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(28 )  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
(29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
(30)  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
(31)  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
(32)  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
(33)  Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


Will this come over night for most husbands? NOT, NOT, TRIPLE NOT!

As all things are with Christ, it is a process, but the start of the firstfruits of Christ in a husband is immediate. The fruits of the Spirit, will be a worthy witness to the fact of Christ working in a husband or not. So, if this isn't being seen in your husband, then obviously all the other things are out the window.

You have to have a foundation laid first.

Luk 6:48
( 48 )  He is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

1Co 3:10-11
(10)  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11)  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Edited and added this because it adds to the point of the post I made:

1Co 11:3
(3)  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:8-12
(8 )  For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
(9)  Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
(10)  For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(11)  Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
(12)  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

[Origen II]

Awesome reply, Steve

I learned a little more from it.

I just can't understand why we who think this way are labeled as "sexist". It's such an insult.

[Origen II]

Then why are Christians considered sexist for believing in gender roles? Being submissive to the husband is wrong all of a sudden? Taking care of the kids is wrong?

I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't appear that many women take it as seriously as they should. While I understand that there are single parents and families with lower incomes...they are excluded from this argument.

I'm speaking about women who just lash out at the fact that they should be the support role in a family.

[Gill]

Hi Isabell,

I think Origen is speaking of women who sacrifice the needs of their family for the sake of their career, whether they feel ok about that or not is a different story.  There are studies done here in the Uk to suggest that this whole idea of a 'superwoman' who is trying to raise the kids, have a career, a social life etc. just isn't coping with it.  Mothers are made to feel guilty for choosing to work and made to feel guilty for staying at home ~ everyone's situation is unique but this whole idea that a woman can 'have it all' is usually a farce.

Maybe you're being labeled as sexist, Origen, because women are always and forever being reminded of their 'roles', whether spiritual or otherwise.  How often did I hear this taught/discussed in church:

Eph 5:25  The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,

hmm, that'd be almost never   .  That's a monumental task isn't it?

[hart4god]

Hi all.

This is an interesting thread!

I think submission is such a loaded word for people (women?) to hear because fundamentalists have so distorted, beyond what even the world could accomplish, the true meaning of Godly submission in the home, the assembly and in the community of faith.

My husband defers to my needs and I defer (set aside) my needs for his. We mutually submit to one another. I esteem him as head of the family (including me, the wife) but I can do it w/o fear or contention becuase he is fulfulling the law of Christ to LOVE! He does not Rule over me. I position  myself under him willingly. Yet if I failed to place myself in correct relationship to him- he is still not justified in Ruling over me.

Submission is a response of the heart-a scared realm where the Lord is at work. It is not a law imposed from outside- like as in the husband lording it over the wife and the wife catering to a husband's carnal nature. that cannot produce good fruit.

These Biblical precepts are not separate from "laying down your life for your friends", "preferring one another in love", etc.
sadly when utilized by the fundamentally wrong-they exist outside of the law of love and it hurts women deeply.

well, that is just my view from the otherside of the fence!
I have enjoyed every one of your posts on this.

hart4god

[leeney]

Wow, this is a loaded subject!

 I married late in life, worked my way through college, worked until I was 7 months preggers with my first child.  At that time I decided I wanted to stay home and raise my children full time.  Here is my personal experience;

 I was held in great esteem while working my way through school, because I was not 'sponging' off my parents, I was independent, energetic, determined, unintimidated, intelligent, hard working----this is how people saw me (not how I was)

 I was held up still while preggers and working, for all the same reasons.

 I was still up there while I stayed home full time with INFANTS.  But once they were able to walk, talk, potty where they should; then things started changing.  'What do you do?'  'Oh, you don't work?'  'Couldn't you at least do something part time?'  'Oh, how boring it must be for you!'  'Why are you wasting your degree?'  I was judged everywhere I went, constantly.  It was bad.  I knew I was doing the right thing, and was very busy doing it.  Yet I came home almost regularly, feeling second class, stupid, 'taken care of', someone's burden, just LESS all the way around.  Even my childhood family treated me this way, all except my  mother.  She had 5 kids and had to work full time all her life, to help feed us.  She had always regretted this, and was thrilled when I stayed home with my kids.

 Yes, we are on a budget; a very tight one.  We have what we need, and have been truly blessed with many 'extras' along the way that anyone else would describe as lucky breaks.  I guess they were, but they were lucky breaks God gave us.  And we are truly grateful for them.  But I also ask myself when I look at other people----Just how big of a house do you need???  What's wrong with buying a used car?  Or an older model?  Walmart, Target, Kohl's, Goodwill!  Hand-me-downs--- I have no problem with these.  

 I did in fact, try to find a part time job once the kids were in school, but like another here, I wanted to be off when my kids were off, and I could not find an employer who would cooperate with that idea.  I do lots of voluneteer things at the schools.  But again, there's some kind of stigma that goes with making money.  I don't know if it's just in America or not, but I see this as a bad thing, the way you are made to feel if you aren't 'carrying your own weight.'

 Now, I have a good friend who works full time; I help her with her kids sometimes, which she appreciates.  She gets just the opposite feedback----'You have kids?'  'Why do you want kids in your situation?'  'Wow, bummer, you can't stay for the office party--those kids are a drain aren't they?'  'Just think how rich you'd be if you didn't have kids?'  'Your money would be your own.'  She comes home feeling less of a human being due to these remarks.  She cries to me, and I cry to her!  Pretty crazy, eh?

 So here it is;  PEOPLE JUDGE, and it doesn't matter what the situation is, they're always looking for the negative.  It's a very selfish thing.  I resent it so much.  I grow weary of it.  It's everywhere.  ----

 If you stay home with your kids,
      You are 'kept'
      You are stupid
      You have no ambition
      You are a drain on society

 If you work and you have kids,
     You are selfish
     You are a society seeker
     You are climbing that social ladder
     You are a money lover
     You are materialistic  

 So how can you win?  So for what it boils down to, I say do what you feel is right for you.  Do what you know you are capable of, and if you are in God, He will steer you in the right direction for your situation.  And screw everyone else!  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

leeney

[JoshuaDavid]

There is no difference between a man and a woman spiritually, just as there is no jew or gentile. Since we are still in the flesh, we have responsibilities at home.
 The man is the head of the house(family), but the woman is the one who makes it run smoothly and efficiently. I believe that is why woman were made more "emotional", to help comfort the children and give them undying support. The man should handle the discipline since the children may take advantage of the mothers "closeness" after all she carried the child for 9 months.
 Todays society is being destroyed quicker than quick because of the money and the love of it, which is the root of all evil. I grew up in a broken home and I seen it my whole life, the bottom line to me is the lack of true love and sobriety. To much marriage going on that is built on sand(lust) and not love. Todays western culture and its definition of love isnt love, but lust.
 Men, love your wives as your ownselves and women, have reverence for your husband. Shalom to you all and may the Spirit of God give you comfort and understanding in all things, amen.