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Author Topic: dead  (Read 4411 times)

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dave

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dead
« on: February 21, 2008, 11:09:22 PM »

I realize and know that it says in the scriptures that the dead know nothing, I dont completly have mind mind around that still, I know it is a truth; a person came by just this evening from a bible study group and she had a question she wanted to ask the teacher but didnt get to. She said she wondered why he had just seemed to skip the verse. It was I Pet. 4:6 and it was that very verse she wanted to ask about, I could have begun but I would have left her empty..how did this tallking of the gospel to the "dead" take place? Why would the talking take place.?
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 08:27:08 AM »

Hi Micah

"spirtually dead"

As in the following few verses


 Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.



 Luk 15:32  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Neither of the above verses mean literally "dead people".

One cannot go down to the grave and "preach" to dead people. But you can preach the gospel to those spiritually "dead".

Hope this helps

Chris R
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joyful1

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2008, 11:16:55 AM »

:D Chris-- thanks for posting that! You catch some things, but time goes by without using them and you loose them! You just reminded me of one of the most important foundational truths! "Dead" spiritually speaking is simply "dead to the truth!"  Thanks again!
Joyce :)
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dave

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 01:26:59 PM »

Thanks. I believe I knew that.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 06:12:10 PM »


Heb 9 : 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER THIS , THE JUDGEMENT.


The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is not preached to humans after they die. There is no Scripture that says that.  After men die the next thing to happen is Judgement. This is what God's Word teaches quite plainly.

Jesus did not go to the generation of Noah's day AFTER they were dead,  to preach them the Gospel of Salvation. He went while they were still alive! The message of the coming of the Messiah was preached in their LIFETIME.  Christ did not go back and raise the generation of Noah FROM THE DEAD to preach to them ahead of Judgement. If He did, then you would have to say that God is a respecter of persons.  God is not a respecter of persons and He did not go and preach to anyone who is dead. When you are dead you know not anything. That is Gods Word. GOD does not lie.

After you die, then there is Judgement. God says so. It is that simple.

When Jesus Christ died HE too was dead and not alive some place else. :)

Hope this helps

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 06:20:09 PM by Arcturus »
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 06:15:46 PM »

Isn't that the point of the elect together with Christ judging the non-believers? To teach them the truth?
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 06:24:18 PM »


There are two groups, the called and the chosen, and one Resurrection.  :)

The teaching on this topic is extensively covered in the teaching at http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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mharrell08

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Re: dead
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 06:35:54 PM »


There are two groups, the called and the chosen, and one Resurrection.  :)

The teaching on this topic is extensively covered in the teaching at http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Is this an answer to my question?
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2008, 09:47:36 PM »


Hi micah7:9,

1Peter 4:5  who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.
1Peter 4:6  For unto this end (what was just said in v. 5) was the gospel preached even to the dead (those in the grave, but did have the gospel preached when they were alive), that they might be judged (at the resurrection of the dead - Great White Throne Judgment) indeed according to men in the flesh (just like everybody is judged while in the flesh), but live according to God in the spirit (Isa 26:9...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness).

Here is an email that I think will help with what is being discussed here.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6555.0.html ------------

First email question...
I guess I have one question and only one.
Why did Jesus command us to preach His Gospel?
That's it
 
Ray's reply...
There are many, but here are a few:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS; and then shall the end come.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, THAT THE GENTILES BY MY MOUTH SHOULD HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL AND  B-E-L-I-E-V-E."
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST: FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVES: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(I Cor. 1:21, Rotherham) For, seeing that, in the wisdom of God, the world, through its wisdom, did not get to knew God, God was well-pleased—through the foolishness of the thing proclaimed [the thing being the Gospel], TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE.

God be with you,
Ray

Second email question...
So, what happens to those who do not believe?

Ray's reply...
Ronald, you are so steeped in Christian paganism that you can't even read your Bible anymore and believe what you read:
 
In the resurrection to JUDGMENT, ALL UNBELIEVERS WILL BELIEVE:

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

And what will all this GOD KNOWLEDGE accomplish?  God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:3-6 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And a hundred more Scriptures just like these..........

God be with you,
Ray

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 05:51:00 PM »

Hello mharrell08

Did you study the teachings yet and find any answers?

There is no quick fix, short cut ways to understand God. God tells us that our thoughts are not His thoughts and our ways are not His ways. Even if we speak or write the same language we can not understand God unless God reveals Himself to us.

 Understanding comes from the Spirit of God. All we can do here is point the direction out and encourage one another to study and meditate on the Word of God and what God says and what He means. This is like learning a new language of the Spirit of God.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 06:37:06 PM »

Arcturus,
How very true that our understanding of the mystery of GOD comes from the Spirit of GOD. I think GOD does not reveal these truths until we study, meditate, search and desire with all our heart to know these truths. All of CHRIST'S parables point out the need to seek, knock and ask along with an ardent heartfelt desire to know HIM.  Paul said it best in I Corinthians 2:2, "For I determined not to know anything among you, save JESUS, and HIM crucified." He tells us why in verse 5, "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of GOD."  Paul concludes with the very essence of how our spiritual understanding and discernment is achieved in verses 6-16 of I Corinthians 2. I love to read this Chapter in the KJV.
But GOD reveals them to us by HIS SPIRIT, for the SPIRIT searches all things, Yes, the deep things of GOD. (verse 10)
OH, THE MIND of GOD. WE must seek after HIS spiritual mind diligently, carefully, prayerfully, and hopefully.
Phil3:10
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 02:51:30 PM »

Hello Phil3 : 10

I enjoyed reading your post especially with the elaboration surrounding what Paul said. I have for some time now been an admirer of 1 Cor 2:2 so I particularly enjoyed what you brought forward that added to this beautiful Word of God. Thank you.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 04:39:58 PM »

Arcturus,
Why do you think GOD chooses to reveal HIMSELF to each of us in different times, ways, places, and circumstances? I do think it is all from the SPIRIT of GOD. Why me and not someone else? I am sure it is HIS will and I don't question HIS will in any way. However, I do feel that spiritual growth is a big part in GOD's revealing HIMSELF but I always wonder why HE chose me.  I know, that there but for HIS grace could go I.
I think most of the spiritually dead reside in the church system and I see real evidence that GOD is calling out more and more people. This is really a crazy question but I feel you will shed some light on my concerns.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2008, 04:54:08 PM »

Hello mharrell08

Did you study the teachings yet and find any answers?

There is no quick fix, short cut ways to understand God. God tells us that our thoughts are not His thoughts and our ways are not His ways. Even if we speak or write the same language we can not understand God unless God reveals Himself to us.

 Understanding comes from the Spirit of God. All we can do here is point the direction out and encourage one another to study and meditate on the Word of God and what God says and what He means. This is like learning a new language of the Spirit of God.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)


Yes, I looked over the Lake of Fire series again as well as the secret rapture paper. I have another question in my Rest of Humanity post. Thanks
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2008, 05:54:55 PM »

Hello Phil 3:10

What we know we know only in part. There is much more! We have to hold on to what we know and painfully proceed through many trials and tribulations. We do not yet know if we have been chosen because that is for those who remain faithful to the end.

Hope this helps :)

Hello mharrell08

I am happy you are studying!  :)

Peace to you brothers

Arcturus :)



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carol v

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 10:06:13 PM »

There are two groups, the called and the chosen, and one Resurrection. 

The teaching on this topic is extensively covered in the teaching at http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory

Peace to you

Arcturus


Arcturus, I believe there is a first and second resurrection

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is a spring harvest and a fall harvest. No secret rapture of course. However, I'm not qualified to debate on the subject and probably should read Ray's secret rapture paper again. I do believe though that the harvests of the OT are types of the resurrections. There is Christ the Firstfruit, then the harvest of the firstfruits (the elect) and the fall harvest or "ingathering."

Exo 23:16  And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labors, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labors out of the field.

Just my limited understanding.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: dead
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 02:05:38 AM »

Hi Carol

Jesus said I am the Resurrection. Jn 11:25 There are not two authentic Jesus's. There is a false Jesus manufactured in Babylon who they worship. This is another Jesus Paul spoke about and there is the living True Jesus who is the living true Resurrection with no parallel or shadow.

I agree with your scriptures. There is a first resurrection and a second death.

peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 02:27:14 AM »


Here is an excerpt from the Mobile Conference 2007 'HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/ index.php/topic,5815.15.html ------------

Now for the last few years I’ve been looking at all these things, about the return of Christ, the millennium and the kingdom and all these things.  I haven’t written to much about that yet.  You know why?  Because I don’t understand it!  But now I’m getting there and here is a Scripture in Revelation.

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
v. 3  And he cast him into the bottomless pit (abyss), and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little season.

That verse gives me a problem, it would take a long time to explain why.  Believe me most people that teach and write books on these prophecies, don’t have a clue.  Not only do they not have the answers, they don’t even know what the problems are.   
But these verses here;

Rev 20:4  …And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
v. 5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Both of these verses can not be true, there is a problem here.  I racked my brain, in my spare time, but I kept it in the back of my mind for a long time.  There is a problem, that won’t work and I can’t make it work.  It doesn’t fit, there is no way to make this thing fit.  Then some months ago, now I know why it, “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” won’t fit.  It’s not Scripture!  Tischendorf has it right there.

-Rev. 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished
It’s not in the Sinaiticus.  So I said, okay now we’re moving again.  We’re a little closer to the Truth. 
--------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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carol v

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 05:20:12 AM »

Hi Carol

Jesus said I am the Resurrection. Jn 11:25 There are not two authentic Jesus's. There is a false Jesus manufactured in Babylon who they worship. This is another Jesus Paul spoke about and there is the living True Jesus who is the living true Resurrection with no parallel or shadow.

I agree with your scriptures. There is a first resurrection and a second death.

peace to you

Arcturus



Your response confuses me Arcturus. I did not ever say in my post that there were two Jesus's and your comments following are very...well, I don't want to start bickering with you. But if you truly wish for me to have peace, please don't put words in my mouth or so purposefully twist what I said.

My response was about the 'when' and the 'how' of the resurrection, not the 'Who.' I never, ever, never, ever said there was another "Who". We were not talking about the spiritual resurrection of the living by the way. If you'll read the topic of this thread you will find out that we are talking about what happens to dead people. That's the name of this thread..."dead".

I did not say that the "Who" has parallels and shadows. What I said was that the 'how' and 'when' are typed and shadowed in the Old Testament through the harvests. Believing that there are different times for resurrection for believers and unbelievers does NOT mean that I believe there is any other way except through the one true Jesus Christ. It certainly doesn't mean that I need a talking to about the Babylonian's who worship another jesus. Small j.

We are, of course, only resurrected through the one and only Jesus Christ. Dead or alive, believers, unbelievers or babylonians, Jesus Christ is the resurrection and life for us all.

However, I do believe that there is a study that could be made that Christ is typed in the Old Testament through Joseph and Boaz among others. This does NOT mean that I don't believe there is a true, living, currently-resurrecting-us, Jesus Christ. It means that one way we are taught about Christ and our relationship to Him is through the types and shadows of the OT. Why you think this is a Babylonian thing, well I have no clue.

Paul certainly believed that the Old Testament was full of 'tupos' (types) and I don't think he was worshipping the Babylonian jesus. Do you? And since the entire Word is a revelation of the true Jesus Christ then it seems pretty clear that He can be typed, paralled and shadowed throughout the Scripture without being a type, shadow or parallel Himself.

It's these exact conversations that have led me to let my membership in this forum lapse twice already in the last 3 years. Please do not put words in my mouth. "Two authentic Jesus's...?" Where did you ever get that from what I said? Must be time to go back to reading the emails and downloading the audios...

Carol
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: dead
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 02:46:45 PM »

Sorry you feel like that Carol.  My purpose was not to upset, challenge or confuse anyone.  :(

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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