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[phazel]

I think this can apply mainly to babylon.  Or at least to people preaching Gods word for money.   

This doesn't mean it does not take money for some things,  but Ray is willing to allow his site here to live or die before he would ever post something for the sole purpose of getting money.


If we are to see the biblical path of spirituality, are we not told that the carnal mind is not subject to the Laws of God?  So in the worlds system, the love of money is natural, our nature is already evil, so the ROOT of that EVIL cannot be money.

I am speculating on that so I do not want to come across as preaching my own ideas here.

In how I see things I have learned here,  money often is the ROOT of the survival of babylon.  Having been on the administration side of church where meeting take place wondering how to "grow" the church,  there is prayer, of course, but in the end,  the PAID leaders make the rules.

So, there is much less concern for study of biblical truth than there is how to keep the church financially able.  So the ROOT of babylons evil is money.   In my opinion.

and as always, correction is welcome.

[Martinez]

Hi phazel!

Going by what the scriptures have to say, the root of all evil is the human heart or the flesh which is the same thing.

Mat 12:34  Offspring of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat 12:35  The good man out of the good treasure of the heart puts forth good things. And the evil man out of the evil treasure puts forth evil things.

Mat 15:8  "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and with their lips honor Me; but their heart holds far off from Me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." Isa. 29:13

Mat 15:18  But the things which come out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and these defile the man.
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart come forth reasonings, evil things, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, blasphemies.

Gen 6:5  And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.

Psa 14:1  To the Overseer. --By David. A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

Pro 20:9  Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?


That's just the tip of  the iceberg really, there is much, much more.


God bless phazel.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Phazel,

I tend to agree with you that this would be primarly directed toward the churches for the very reasons you state, total unbelievers would not be influenced or convicted by this scripture or even care to ignore it or justify themselves.

We have to remember that it is the greedy, lustful coveting of money or gain not the money in and of itself, the same president's faces appear on the donations to Bible Truths as they do on the tithes and offerings given to Babylon.

The phrase "love of money" comes from one Greek word "philarguria" which can be directly translated to "avarice."

av·a·rice insatiable greed for riches; inordinate, miserly desire to gain and hoard wealth. 

av·a·rice Immoderate desire for wealth; cupidity.

Cupidity ( a word that doesn'e seem to get tossed around very often) is another definition and synonym of avarice.

cu·pid·i·ty  covetousness, avidity, hunger, acquisitiveness

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Martinez,

We were posting around the same time. 

Great point(s).

Peace,

Joe

[phazel]

The main reason that I made a distinction between the carnal man and church is from this verse that is specific about it.  

1Timothy 6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain.

In many areas of what we consider evil money does not apply at all I do not think.  If a child gets raped, it is doubtful the root is money, so that would appear to be a contradiction to the above verse?


I am also going by rays teachings which is primarily towards Christianity.  Ray doesn't seem to admonish any other sect of religion in the same way because his perspective is from the bible as being the ultimate truth.

I agree with that.

If primarily,  babylon, is teaching evil,  babylon is driven by leaders wanting money.  Big congregations allow the pastors to get paid more, book sales,  multi-media, etc.


So I suppose it would be helpful in knowing how the verse above isn;t contradictory to evil that does not seem to have its roots in money.

[Samson]

Hi Phazel,

              Money in itself isn't the problem: " For we have brought nothing into the World, and neither can we carry anything out. So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things. However, those who are determined to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and many senseless and hurtful desires, which plunge men into destruction and ruin. For the Love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious(Evil) things, and by reaching out for this Love some have been led astray from the faith and stabbed themselves with many pains." 1Tim.6:7-10. Although we usually equate the " Love of Money " with the Rich class, you can be poor and have a " Love for Money", people can have an inordinate desire for money to the exclusion of all else. I've heard of people that were of the working class winning the Lottery and to squander their big winnings in a matter of months to a year. That unbalanced view of money can be an Idol or our God, many have killed others for its' sake. Of course Solomon says that Money can be for a protection(Ecclesiastes. 7:12). Money represents purchasing power and in itself has no Morality or desires, it depends who's hands its' in. The Real Question that one could pose is, What would happen if one of us were to inherit a large sum of money. In my case, I know what I hope I would do, but would it actually turn out that way, how would it affect me, would I become arrogant, would I try to hoard it. I have a relative who has a large sum of money and is in his eighties, with no financial concerns at all, yet if he is late returning a library book and owes 20 cents, its' a big deal to him. Obviously, he can't take it with him to the grave, to some extent he's got some of it in a Trust Fund for his offspring, but aside from that amount, he has plenty to spend, yet lives very cheap and is in deep worry about his stocks. He has alot of oil stocks(no need to worry about them at this time, Ha Ha). Anyway, I cited this example regarding money, because its' one I'm directly familiar with and is a fact in this case.  Just my thoughts, For whatever its' worth.

                                         Your Brother in Christ, Samson.

[phazel]

Thanks for your input Samson.  I will clarify a bit on what I am saying.  I am not suggesting that money itself is a problem.  There are many good uses for money as you have pointed out.   I work for a living and if I can get a raise at work, I certainly will.    But I am going by the whole verse.   It seems that a fondness for money cause some to go astray from the truth.


From my observance of  Christianity , the teachings in  church are structured to grow a churches membership so there will be more income and a large majority of the teachings appeals to human emotion and love of self.

I see a lot of the media that the church I left purchased was from large churches and it always has the free will self power aspect to the teaching structured in such a way to  get people all fired up about what they can do.  What poweer they have of their own.   The flesh likes control and power.

This also does not mean that a church with paid staff is inherantly evil just because they get paid.  But, if the large successful organizations in Christianity are setting the benchmark for what other churches teach because of the money it can generate and they do not care so much for biblical truth as just a biblical perspective that sounds nice and gets people to buy their stuff, then there is a root in evil for the love of money in that.

I hope that clarifies my perspective a bit.

[hillsbororiver]

In many areas of what we consider evil money does not apply at all I do not think.  If a child gets raped, it is doubtful the root is money, so that would appear to be a contradiction to the above verse?

Hi Phazel,

I don't think the verse is a contradiction, it is more of a translation issue. If you look at the definitions above (my previous post) you see that the original Greek word include covetousness.

"Thou shalt not covet" led to the very first sin that was committed.

Amen Samson,

Your post brought some scriptures to mind.

Pro 30:8  Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
 
Pro 30:9  Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

Php 4:11  Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
 
1Ti 6:8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Peace,

Joe

[phazel]

Thanks for all the replies.

I want to make sure I am just trying to clarify the difference in how we may look at evil.  Ray does tell us to pay attention to the words.  I sometimes can be slow so bear with me. 

I see some significant things.  So follow my train of thought here a minute.

We typically view demons as evil, but I find it very curious in Mark 5 that Jesus seems to very calmly address the unclean spirits in the man in the tombs.  Jesus even honors the demons request of where to be sent.    Jesus seemed to treat the pharasees more harshly than he did a legion of demons.   I'm like.... What the?


So we would look at a rape as an evil act.  I am only trying to correlate  the evil we would perceive a rape to be and the verse that states what the root of evil is.

I know the verse is not saying that money is evil, it is saying  coveting money is a root of "all"  Evils.


So coveting in and of itself is not at issue, it is coveting money.   So I am trying to see how what we would  consider to be evil that doesn't appear to be rooted in the coveting of money applies to that verse.


Could it be possible, that what appears to be evil acts is not evil but simply a natural state of the flesh and Evil is actually in babylon when the source of evil teachings is the struggle for dollars?

Sorry if I am not getting this very quickly.

[Samson]

Hello again Phazel,

                           This Topic is of interest to me, because I grew up in a household where Money and Secular success were more important than the people living in that household, I'm convinced that God planned that experience in my case as a learning experience, when love in your household is superficial and Money is the main emphasis, it devalues the people in it. Thats' why in my last Post in this thread when Quoting 1Timothy. 6:7-10, I began with verse seven, but wanted you to especially notice verse eight, " SO, HAVING SUSTENANCE AND COVERING, WE SHALL BE CONTENT WITH THESE THINGS ", I think the key point is BEING CONTENT WITH THESE THINGS. We can apply this point to Church Organizations in that they need money to run and finance their ministry, just like this ministry needs financing to sustain and operate this Web-Site. In these Tele-Evangelist Ministries, individuals are benefitting, so as to become filthy rich and then they act as if God is blessing their financial standing. It doesn't appear they would be content with only sustenance and covering. Does this imply that its' wrong to have more than Sustenance and Covering, Absolutely Not. When someone due to circumstances beyond their knowing it, loses that Money, WHAT WILL THEY DO(theirs' that word Will again-oh,oh), BE CONTENT WITH SUSTENANCE AND COVERING or use ANY MEANS they can to achieve their former wealth. If in the right hands, money can be used for much good, money has no conscience, however as stated previously in my last post, I don't really know how inheriting alot of money would affect me, although my previous experiences in life, has given me insight as to how I wouldn't want to end up. Those that continue to be ruled by their excessive riches aren't likely to learn anything, at least in this lifetime and as I expressed in my last Post, I know of such a person(relative) close to home(no, he's not as rich as Mark Cuban or Bill Gates), but Money Pre-dominates his conversation(Matt. 15:17-19" that which proceeds from the mouth,comes out of the heart). Hopefully I helped you with this post to clarify further, hopefully I didn't add any confusion, sometimes I tend to rant on about a Subject, but my intention is to be clear on all points, so the reader doesn't get the wrong idea.

                         They say that English is one of the most difficult Languages to learn, words can have alot of different meanings or shades, must be difficult for those coming from another Language.

                                 Peace and Understanding to You-Phazel, we all need God to help us understand, thats' for sure.   Your Brother, Samson.

[Kat]

Hi Phazel,

I think if you look at this passage you will see what is being discussed here.

1Tim 6:7  for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world;
v. 8  but if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
v. 9  But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

That verse explains what is primarily being dicussed here and Paul goes on to state what this desire of money above can do.

1Tim 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs.

I think it is this "love of money" that is the problem.

Mat 6:24  "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon (wealth).

I hope this is a little help 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Phil3:10]

Kat,
I think you are so right that it is the love of money and I would add the way money is spent is also an issue. I know a  person whose greatest thrill in life was each year when his accountant brought him his new financial statement. He increased his wealth yearly and this was the most important thing in his life. He had a wonderful family, which he eventually lost, but his god was money. He was very careful in spending and just hoarded his wealth or increased it to satisfy his wants to be a multi-millionaire.
I daily witness friends making a great deal of money and wasting it on foolish things. There are to many real needs that need attention but they are consumed with their own lusts for things. If the church system did it's job we would not need the welfare system we have in place today. However, they are more interested in newer and bigger buildings, outside activities and increased salaries.
Money is only a commodity, it is how much value we put on it and how we use it that counts. I have also seen people of wealth use their money in a wonderful way. They feed the poor, care for the sick and are generous in many ways. I Timothy 6:17 kind of wraps up my thinking on wealth. "Charge them that are rich in the world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living GOD, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy."
We can generally make about anything, in excess, a sin.
Phil3:10

[decas247]

Hi Phazel

In terms of money and the church I believe if they really believed scripture then the modern day business money making churches would not be as they are today, if they have faith in God , God says if we submit ourselves to God he will grant the desires of our heart.
But I don’t believe a lot of modern day church institutions really believe this. Ray does not ask for any donations but many of us are compelled to give, even without him asking us, God just puts it in the hearts of those of us, and we give to Ray without being pushed. Because he gives to us freely.

In Matt 6 shown below says
 
6:30
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

6:31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ?

6:32
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

6:34

If we would just believe this scripture, I know sometimes we are all guilty of not remembering this scripture when the going gets tough. Most of the modern day churches do not believe these scripture or as Kat mentioned earlier, there would not be a welfare system and the church would take care of these needs.
 I can testify that when you really seek God he does supply all your needs, that even in the mist of not knowing where the next money will come from and in the mist of difficult times he has been there for me. And as well as being part of bible truths, believe it or not God has allowed me to come across another positive organisation which is not like the conventional church.  I have joined this organisation as they are helping people from all walks of life get back on their feet and a reason to hope again. This organisation aids in all different areas of peoples lives such as health, fitness, dieting, relationships, personal development , spiritual, charity etc and at the same time helping these same people get out of debt, off welfare, off drugs and living a life they would have never thought possible. They have brought nations and cultures and people from all different backgrounds together to help one another. I have attended quite a few of their seminars which are international.  I was just thinking to myself if the church, had a system like this in churches. instead of a hierarchy , where only the Pastors and Deacons and what not, get the most wealth, whilst the rest of the church and the nation around them remains poor , then things would be a lot better. And this organisation has only been going for two years but is international and is changing lives worldwide just like bible-truths except they do not profess to be Christians, Muslims,  Buddhists etc, but their philosophy is if you help others and develop yourself mentally, then you will be helped but their approach is  a more hands on of helping others.  These churches could learn a lot from this as I would rather attend and be a part of that organisation than attend any of these money making business orientated churches any day.


God Bless

Selina