This has to be said.

[Hunter]

God is sovereign!

When I read the Bible, the lack of free will of humanity is only used to clarify events. By itself, it is an empty doctrine without substance.

We do what we do because God willed it. Okay. Now what?

See what I mean?

We weren't meant to fixate on the lack of free will in and of itself, because that's empty... it leads nowhere. The point is that events have a purpose. Nothing that has passed was in vain. That's the thing that matters.

[Martinez]

Hi there Hunter

My personal understanding is that everything that has or ever will happen is a parable of God (He like telling parables)
I think if you were in tune with God enough, you could look at everything happening around you and know exactly where you were at, that is where God was at with you, being that the phiscal reflects the spiritual and everything is a parable.

I really believe that one day when all this crazy flesh business if finished and we have an incredible capacity for understanding and our wisdom and intelligence is far far greater than you can even imagine now, you will be able to pick up the book of human history and read it and marvel and understand everything in the greatest detail and it will only say one thing,
Glory to God.

Just my own thoughts on the matter (maybe?)


Martinez.

[hillsbororiver]

God is sovereign!

When I read the Bible, the lack of free will of humanity is only used to clarify events. By itself, it is an empty doctrine without substance.

We do what we do because God willed it. Okay. Now what?

See what I mean?

We weren't meant to fixate on the lack of free will in and of itself, because that's empty... it leads nowhere. The point is that events have a purpose. Nothing that has passed was in vain. That's the thing that matters.

Hi Hunter,

Nothing in the bible is "empty without substance."

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I can't say I agree with your statement because once we recognize it is the beast within who holds on tight to this "free will" doctrine we begin to understand that the enemy of our spiritual growth is not somewhere out there but staring right back at us when we look into the mirror.

When we begin to perceive that the events that were caused by God to form us into the Son or Daughter He desires we can truly start to understand how and why evil must be a part of this experience in the flesh.

Recognizing that we do not have free will is a key of understanding the whole creation process that began at the Garden of Eden and culminates at the resurrection and Lake of Fire where eventually all creation will be purified and perfected where God then becomes All in All. It all begins and ends with God, He is indeed sovereign, man has a notion that he can thwart God's will replacing it with his own, this is a huge revelation as most people do not have a clue to this fact.

Perhaps there is more to truly understanding this than one might see at first glance;



  WHY ALL THE FUSS OVER FREE WILL?

Why does it matter one way or the other whether man possesses free will or not? Would the future of the human race be changed somehow if man did or did not possess free will? Here's how much it matters: If the basic free will doctrine and the eternal torture in hell doctrine taught by Christendom are both true, then man himself, and not God, is ultimately responsible for where he will spend eternity.

If man possessed a will that is free from internal or external causality, then it would be possible for all humanity to decide to choose God and be saved. Or all humanity could decide to not choose God and all would be lost. Or part of humanity could choose one way and part the other. It is the latter that is believed and taught by Christendom.

I receive emails on a regular basis stating that: "God doesn't send anyone to hell. Man himself chooses to go to hell." Oh really? And do we have a chapter and verse on such heresy? I think not.

Statistically speaking, there has been relatively few of the world's population that have ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ (which name is admittedly the only name under heaven by which men "must be saved," Acts 4:12). So what happens to all of the billions upon billions upon billions of boys and girls, men and women, who have never heard the name of Jesus? Let Dr. James Kennedy (probably the greatest Christian theologian alive on earth today—sporting six doctorates) answer this question for us:

"It is the light of Christ. It is the light of grace, and it is not incumbent upon God to extend it to everyone. Let us make it very clear that it is not incumbent upon God to extend it to anyone."

"But because God extends it to some does not mean He must extend it to any other. He must be just. He doesn't have to be gracious or merciful to any guilty sinner...."

"So the idea that God owes to anyone some offer of mercy is totally foreign from [to] the Bible."

(Above quotations taken from a printed brochure of the sermon What About Those Who Have Never Heard? By D. James Kennedy. A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D., D.Sac.Lit., Ph.D., Litt. D., D.Sac. Theol., D.Humane Let. From the pulpit of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida).

Is this the way that God would have Christians believe that He cares and provides for billions upon billions of His creatures? By burning their flesh in some terrorist torture chamber for all eternity? For absolutely no redeeming reason or purpose? Dr. Kennedy says: "Hell is fair." Now I don't mean to be unkind to Dr. Kennedy, but such sermons as this desperately need exposing. Millions are being deceived by such unscriptural nonsense and evil.

Let's have a little sensibility in this matter: Even if man had a free will, in what possible way would he be free to choose Christ and choose heaven, should he be one of the billions of unfortunate people who has never heard of Jesus or heaven? But we are told that he does choose hell even if he never heard of heaven or hell, and doesn't even know that there is a choice to be made in the first place. And so, the idea of a free will would be of no value to the salvation of the majority of humanity even if they did possess such a God-defying power.

THE MAN OF SIN IS A BEAST WHO THINKS HE IS A GOD

Last Installment we learned that "the man of sin," spoken of by Paul in I Thes. 2, resides not in a physical temple of stone and mortar in Jerusalem, but inside of each and every one of us. This man of sin sits in "the temple of God whose temple ye are." And we learned that God calls this man of sin, "a beast".

What possible power does man believe that he possesses which causes him to

"...oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God ['as a god'] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God ['is a god']" (II Thes. 2:4)?

As long as this phantom god rules one's heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out, seeing that, "no man can serve two masters," and "what fellowship has light with darkness?"

EVEN THE DISCIPLES DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE BEAST WITHIN

Before the true spiritual conversion of Christ's disciples, we read this:

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but ye know Him; for He dwells WITH you, and shall [at a future date when they are converted] be IN you" (John 14:16-17).

After years of following Jesus daily the apostles were not as yet converted. In the evening of the last Passover Jesus tells Peter:

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for you, that your faith fall not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

Yes indeed, "...when you are converted...." And just when might that be?

Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even 'force,' if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about.

"And Jesus said unto them, all ye shall be offended because of Me this night; for it is written, I shall smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered" (Mark 14:27 & Zech. 13:7).

The disciples all said that they would remain loyal. But Jesus said that they would all be offended because of Him. Was there a reason for God causing the disciples to will loyalty to Jesus and then in the same night to will to deny Jesus? Does God do anything in vain without a reason? This was all part of their conversion process. God totally humiliated them by proving to them that their own will was not free to do what they wanted, but that

"...it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us 'to will'] and TO DO [God causes us 'to do'] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).

In just one night God smashed the presumed free will of all the disciples. They lost confidence in their flesh after that night. James later shows us just how well he learned this lesson of so-called free self determinism:

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).

Free will? Where?

James certainly agrees with Scripture and Science that man has the ability "to will." But he also fully recognizes that there are two things that constantly oppose and change the will of man, so that it cannot be said that the will is free to will its own destiny for even a day or an hour.

What are these two factors over which man has absolutely no control whatsoever?

1. Factor number one--CIRCUMSTANCES: What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man's will? Answer: "Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow."

God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.

How did all the disciples will to remain loyal to Jesus no matter what, at one moment in time, and in the next moment in time, they all changed their will to forsake Him? What changed their wills? Circumstances. One moment they were at ease and safe in the upper room, and at a later moment they were in the garden surrounded by Roman Soldiers! Fear was the circumstance that caused their (un-free) wills to change.

So it was the presence of certain circumstances that caused the disciples to will as they did. But what caused the circumstances to be as they were to ensure that they would will appropriately to fulfill Christ's prophecy concerning their denying and forsaking Him?

2. Factor number two—GOD'S WILL: Notice the second thing that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write regarding what will or will not happen on any given day to any given person. "...if the Lord will..."

Who was in charge of all these circumstances, which caused the disciples to change their wills? Why God, of course. They did not want to change their wills. They did not desire to deny their Lord and Saviour. They did not wish to make liars and fools of themselves. They did not want to be shown that they were all cowards. Well then, why did they change their wills if they did not wish to change their wills? Were they free to not change their wills? No, they were not free.

The fear inside of them caused and made (and yes, FORCED, if you will) them to change their will. And Jesus Himself told them that they would change their wills, so how pray tell could it have been otherwise? Yet I suppose that some are so spiritually stubborn that they will still insist that the apostles did not need to change their wills, that their wills were yet free to stay loyal in the face of these fearful circumstances.

When we argue with God like this, we demean Him. God has a plan, and God brings about His plan. God is not stupid. God knows exactly how to cause man (all mankind) to do exactly as He plans for them to do.


Read it all here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I really believe that one day when all this crazy flesh business if finished and we have an incredible capacity for understanding and our wisdom and intelligence is far far greater than you can even imagine now, you will be able to pick up the book of human history and read it and marvel and understand everything in the greatest detail and it will only say one thing,
Glory to God.

Amen Martinez!

Peace,

Joe

[Hunter]

I'm not denying that we are without free will, so those paragraphs were needless.

Next time, please do not bombard me with more than I care to read. I know you mean well, but it is nothing short of annoying, if not a little rude.

Anyway. We are supposed to concentrate on the fact that everything had/has/will have a purpose.

Great post, Martinez. 

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Hunter,

Perhaps they were not "useless" to others (besides yourself) that happen to be reading this thread.

Peace,

Joe

[Sorin]

I'm not denying that we are without free will, so those paragraphs were needless.

Next time, please do not bombard me with more than I care to read. I know you mean well, but it is nothing short of annoying, if not a little rude.

Anyway. We are supposed to concentrate on the fact that everything had/has/will have a purpose.

Great post, Martinez. 

So, who ever said that anything that passed was without substance and in vain? Certainly not L. Ray, nor anyone here-so where'd you get that from?

[mharrell08]

I think what Hunter is trying to say is why all the fuss talking about something we do not have which also does not exist. He does not see the relevance between his question being answered and Martinez's response which are actually one and the same. He does not seem to understand. I'm not trying to talk bad about you Hunter but just posting this so no one else will be confused.

[musicman]

I'm not denying that we are without free will, so those paragraphs were needless.

Next time, please do not bombard me with more than I care to read. I know you mean well, but it is nothing short of annoying, if not a little rude.

Anyway. We are supposed to concentrate on the fact that everything had/has/will have a purpose.

Great post, Martinez. 

That bit was a great reminder of what I already know but sometimes forget.  The thing is, is that part of the "parable" of this life is in giving up what we think we have.  The scriptures don't need to say "ye haven't any free will" for the teaching against it to be relevent.  Which ever words man chooses for such a false belief is beside the point.  Man thinks he has it.  The scriptures attest to this.  And the scriptures correct this false belief.  The church teaches it and not even the atheists seem to understand how unscientific the belief is.  By the way, there is also no Christian hell, no trinity, no fallen Lucifer Devil, and many other things that the church inists.  Coming out of the church or world, requires learning the truth about these many false doctrines.  Before one knows truth, he/she must unlearn false truth.

[mharrell08]

Great reply musicman...I absolutely agree

[Deborah-Leigh]

...mharrell08 I second that and add wo what Musicman notes....and they have also to repent of ever having believed  blasphemous thourghs against God  

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Hunter]

I think some of you have turned scripture into a pretentious, smug game. Jesus Christ has never endorsed that... and now, you've become what you chose to rebuke: Pharisees.

There is no debating you, because you're like mules... stubborn to a horrible fault.

I spend a lot of time on Bibletruths reading Ray's papers. Do I disagree with any of them? Not yet! Do I think the "no free will" doctrine IS without substance when you miss its implications? Yes. Because implication is everything.

Don't see this as an opening to treat me like I'm ignorant. The only ignorance I've seen from anyone comes from other posters... ignorance of what they are.

[Sorin]

I think some of you have turned scripture into a pretentious, smug game. Jesus Christ has never endorsed that... and now, you've become what you chose to rebuke: Pharisees.

There is no debating you, because you're like mules... stubborn to a horrible fault.

I spend a lot of time on Bibletruths reading Ray's papers. Do I disagree with any of them? Not yet! Do I think the "no free will" doctrine IS without substance when you miss its implications? Yes. Because implication is everything.

Don't see this as an opening to treat me like I'm ignorant. The only ignorance I've seen from anyone comes from other posters... ignorance of what they are.

LS? Or PMS?

[Dennis Vogel]

God is sovereign!

When I read the Bible, the lack of free will of humanity is only used to clarify events. By itself, it is an empty doctrine without substance.

We do what we do because God willed it. Okay. Now what?

See what I mean?

We weren't meant to fixate on the lack of free will in and of itself, because that's empty... it leads nowhere. The point is that events have a purpose. Nothing that has passed was in vain. That's the thing that matters.

I don't think new people fixate on free will without cause. It is the most difficult doctrine to come to grips with. If you quickly got it and understood it, then you are blessed. But it took me years.

IMO, most on this forum still do not have a deep conviction about free will. They understand intellectually, but what they really want is to really believe and trust God. They want that freedom to "not worry about anything" brings.

You got it, so what's the big deal you say. Why doesn't everyone get it? It's so simple.

But we're all on different paths and for some it's God's will that they dig deep.

It's not right to say other peoples struggles are empty and lead nowhere.

Dennis

[Hunter]

I think some of you have turned scripture into a pretentious, smug game. Jesus Christ has never endorsed that... and now, you've become what you chose to rebuke: Pharisees.

There is no debating you, because you're like mules... stubborn to a horrible fault.

I spend a lot of time on Bibletruths reading Ray's papers. Do I disagree with any of them? Not yet! Do I think the "no free will" doctrine IS without substance when you miss its implications? Yes. Because implication is everything.

Don't see this as an opening to treat me like I'm ignorant. The only ignorance I've seen from anyone comes from other posters... ignorance of what they are.

LS? Or PMS?

That's the second time you've had nothing to contribute. What's that like, Sorn? 

I don't think new people fixate on free will without cause. It is the most difficult doctrine to come to grips with. If you quickly got it and understood it, then you are blessed. But it took me years.

IMO, most on this forum still do not have a deep conviction about free will. They understand intellectually, but what they really want is to really believe and trust God. They want that freedom to "not worry about anything" brings.

You got it, so what's the big deal you say. Why doesn't everyone get it? It's so simple.

But we're all on different paths and for some it's God's will that they dig deep.

It's not right to say other peoples struggles are empty and lead nowhere.

Dennis

I believe selfishness plays into it. They have to overcome the baby trend of "I don't have free will." And repeat it incessantly to try to make everything about them. Also . . . they feel like something has been taken from them. It's hard for some when they wake up one morning and find they wasted years of their life, all the while having owned nothing, including their free will.

It's quite beatiful.

But it's not that "I don't have free will", it's that "GOD is sovereign."

The magnetism of Ray's teachings to some is another indulgance of that baby behavior. That's why God has to spank their bottoms. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hey watch what you say to Sorin. He is my brother and we are little ones.

[Hunter]

"Brother" must be code for domestic partner.

[Matt]

Look what I missed when I went to lunch

Interesting view point, I think I understand what you are getting at.
Ignorance (which is not a bad word) is why I am here .

I often wonder about the purpose of it all and why God chose to do it in this manner.  He could have done anything He wanted, and yet, this is where we all are.  I do not believe that we will have an answer to this in our present state, and if we did, who would believe it?

Matt

[Deborah-Leigh]

one to another with brotherly love.....

That quote is in the Word of God. See if you can find it

I'll make it easy for you. Jesus said this one...out the mote that in in thy brothers eye....



As for ignorance, we all have that ailment Matt ....few know it and many don't

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Hunter]

That's not convincing anyone, Arcterus.