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[phazel]

I was contemplating this verse and paying attention to the words.

Matthew 7:13  "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.

If we really look close it is saying the ways to enter the same place.

The first part of the verse says "Enter through"  The last of the verse says "entering through it"

It is assumed that hell is the other place, but that is adding to the word of God.   So, if we just look at the words,  this one verse is showing ways to enter the same place.   


So then we may ask, what gets destroyed?  I think we  find yet another contradiction of the doctrine of hell.

The path to destruction cannot be hell, as nothing is destroyed there as we are told.   Anyone there is alive and aware of whatever hell is and cannot be destroyed but having pain and suffering forever.

Thoughts anyone?

[musicman]

What do you mean by saying that verse is talking about entering the same gate?  One leads to life, is cramped and few enter there.  The other gate: it is spacious and many will enter through there to destruction.

[phazel]

I did not say the same gate, I said ways to enter the same place.

[lilitalienboi16]

Their are FEW entering into life and MANY into destruction. Thats how i see it. I'm not sure what is being said here though, so forgie me =]

God bless,

Alex

[Stevernator]

Hi,
I got this from Young's Literal Translation

13`Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;
14how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

So it says and many are those going in through it.  It appears that "it" is referring to the wide gate that is leading to the destruction.
According to Strong's dictionary, destruction is from  the Greek word, apoleia which means ruin or loss.

1 Corinthians 3:15 reads,

15if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

So I believe that this is saying that many will suffer ruin/loss when they are resurrected and cast into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20, 20:15) but will be saved by it.

Here is a frightening illustration (Rev 14:9-11)

 9And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
10he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

I am speculating that once they stop bowing before the beast and his image or stop receiving the mark of his name and call on Christ, they are saved?

[chuckt]

I was contemplating this verse and paying attention to the words.

Matthew 7:13  "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.

If we really look close it is saying the ways to enter the same place.

The first part of the verse says "Enter through"  The last of the verse says "entering through it"

It is assumed that hell is the other place, but that is adding to the word of God.   So, if we just look at the words,  this one verse is showing ways to enter the same place.   


So then we may ask, what gets destroyed?  I think we  find yet another contradiction of the doctrine of hell.

The path to destruction cannot be hell, as nothing is destroyed there as we are told.   Anyone there is alive and aware of whatever hell is and cannot be destroyed but having pain and suffering forever.

Thoughts anyone?

christians always use this verse to refer to the ""afterlife"" when one follows the subject we see all surrounding text to be in present tense form.

the life i was leading was a life of destruction, and the ways of this world and the gods of this world lead to destruction NOW.

how many truley open the door and expereince Christ in the flesh?


God bless
chuckt

[Kat]

Hi Phazel,

Jesus Christ is the one and only way to the narrow - cramped - strait gate.

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

All went the way to destruction.  Only when God dragged us to Jesus "the strait gate" did we turn.

Rom 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
v. 10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
v. 11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
v. 12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
v. 13  Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
v. 14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
v. 15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
v. 16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
v. 17  And the way of peace have they not known:
v. 18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[phazel]

I realize I am just picking one verse to contemplate and  I am not trying to say that we bypass Jesus through the wide gate.   I am just seeing two paths and that through those paths we end up at the same place.


The verse 

Matthew 7:13  "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.

from scripture4all.org the last part  "and many are the ones into coming thru her"  Coming thru to where?  I think coming to Christ is what is meant.


in the beginning of the verse it says "enter through"  but it is not specific in the verse to what your entering.  the ending of the verse implys you end up at the same place you have just had to take a different path because the ending of the verse says the same as the beginning.  "Entering through it"


We will not enter into hell through the wide gate and that is what Christians will specify, they will say it is two gates,  the gates of heaven (narrow) the gates of hell (wide).

I think the gates possibly are the path to Jesus, not Jesus being the narrow gate itself.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Phazel

We have to compare spiritual things with spiritual. This is one of the tools to come to understand the word of God. We use this tool together with the knowledge that the scriptures are not of any private interpretation.

Here are the two scriptures to compare.

Matt 7 : 13  Go in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to death.

Luke 13 : 24 Labor to enter in through the narrow gate; for I say to you that many will seek to enter in, and will not have strength.


When we hold up these two scriptures and compare them against the doctrine of the MYTH of Free Will, it becomes pretty easy to see who is in charge of who is chosen and who is called.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus

[phazel]

I also was not suggesting that we have free will or doubting who is in charge. I am saying that I see matthew 7:13 describing the two ways we will get to Jesus by showing they both  "enter into" the same place, which I see that being Jesus Christ,

Isn't the narrow gate those who have been dragged by God in such a manner as they will not need to pass through the Lake of Fire?

Isn't the wide gate those who have to pass through the Lake of fire? Aren't both of these paths "before" coming to Christ? 


 If Christ is where ALL mankind end up.  Then I am only saying that Matthew 7:13 is saying the two paths enter the same place, but they are different paths.    Because of the wording I do not see christ as the Narrow gate, or everyone eventually passes through the Narrow gate.   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Phazel

As with all the parables. They are one.

They say the same thing that there are the called and the chosen, the many and the few and this simply lights  up again in book of Matthew and the book of Luke.

Is Jesus saying in Luke that few will enter in and few will be given the strength? I think so. To these few, there is no mention that they will die. Jesus says that the MANY who enter in through the broad way, THEY will experience death.

In Luke, Jesus says many are labouring to enter in via the narrow gate but they will not have the STRENGTH. He does not say these will DIE. He says they do not have the STRENGHT and will not succeed in entering in via the narrow gate.

Will they die for having tried and not succeeding? Or will they be saved? I think they will be saved and rewarded for trying. As for those who went by the broad way...well Jesus is quite clear. Their end is Death and they will perish and be raised again to judgment at the White Throne.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Phazel,

I see your point.  It is true that one day all things (beings both human and spirit) will be subject to God.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I think Matt. 7:13 is also, as Arcturus was saying, is showing the difference of the called and the chosen, now in this age  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[David]

Hi Phazel. I don't see this as meaning the same path. One is to Christ, the other destruction. True, those going into destruction will eventually be brought into Christ, but I see them as totally serparate gates/paths.

[hillsbororiver]

As Arcturus and Kat stated all the parables proclaim the same message, (many called, few chosen);

Mark 4

13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Matthew 13

3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mark 4

3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 8

5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

6And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

8And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The parables do compliment and explain each other like the parable of the sewer does here expanding on the narrow path. As you can "see" above much seed is scattered or sewn but it dwindles as some return to their old ways or are engulfed in false doctrines, some with a hardened heart lose interest as they realize the love of the world and the Love of our Lord is incompatible, others cannot endure the trials and tribulations that are required of His people.

Through this process the many become the few;

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




 

[phazel]

Hi Phazel. I don't see this as meaning the same path. One is to Christ, the other destruction. True, those going into destruction will eventually be brought into Christ, but I see them as totally serparate gates/paths.

I never said the same "path".



No intended offense to anyone  but everyone so far has seen something in my post that I never said.   

[hillsbororiver]

Hi again,

I think it is safe to say that the gate to destruction (G684) leads to the White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire;

G684

ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I think Chuck touched on a key earlier in the thread;

how many truley open the door and expereince Christ in the flesh?

God bless
chuckt

Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Joh 10:7  Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
 
His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[phazel]

Hi again,

I think it is safe to say that the gate to destruction (G684) leads to the White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire;

Mainly what I believe is not in disagreement with most of what everyone is saying.   What I am saying is that I do not see Jesus   "AS" the narrow gate itself,  but it is one path "TO" Jesus.  The path of WIDE gate, I agree probably would take "the called"  to where you say, but  this path or "process"  will have to go to Jesus as well.  Am I wrong?


If the called and the chosen must all go through Jesus to the father, then Jesus cannot be the "narrow gate" itself. 


 I am looking at words of Matthew 7:13 and saying that  the words  "Enter in"  and "Entering in"  are talking about both paths entering into  "Jesus".


I apologize if my initial post was too vague.   

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Phazel,

I think I understand your point now, the door or gate which could very well be Jesus is the way of His elect as they enter into the Kingdom but after the elect are changed into immortality and incorruptable it is the elect (through the initial power of Christ that is indwelling in them) that reaps the Fall Harvest bringing the rest of creation into the Kingdom.

Yes all (or both) paths lead to Christ but the wide one takes a detour through the LOF.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

[Linny]

I understand what you are saying Phazel. I don't think you were vague. I am not sure I "see" what you see but it does make sense to me. I'd need to study it more.
I did a word study recently on the word "destruction" because it seems to be used to mean "going to hell."
Destruction had several meanings depending on the verse it was used in and the following were all the meanings which show that "going to hell to be tortured forever" was never one of them.
"Spiritual loss"
"complete ruin"
"extinction" -this one was used twice regarding how the Lord saves us from extinction.
"Punishment"
It helped me a lot to re-read all those Scriptures using the correct meanings rather than the one that was burned into me to mean going to hell.

[jerreye]

I think Phazel has a good point. I saw what he saw many months ago. The "narrow" gate is for those who have Christ now, namely the elect. The broad gate is the OTHER path that will eventually lead to Christ, albeit, through the LOF. Both paths will eventually lead to the SAME PLACE, which is Christ. We either judge ourselves NOW and enter the narrow gate, or BE judged later, with the rest of the world and enter the broad gate. Either way, you are going to end up at Christ!

This is how I see it. 

Jeremy