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Author Topic: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire  (Read 11551 times)

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Dante

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2008, 09:03:12 AM »

Perhaps this can explain it.....

A person goes through life using the false teaching that there is a hell, as their way of letting off steam when they are hurt, abused or persecuted by others. They get a sense of righteous indignation and they feel better by thinking that anyone who upsets them will go to Hell and that God will punish them in eternal torment.

Arcturus :)


The thought occurred to me when I read what you said, that maybe these are the murderers mentioned in Revelation who have their part in the lake of fire?
I mean compared to thinking and relishing that your enemies will be tortured for all eternity, real physical murder pales into insignificance!

1Jo 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Just a thought.



I agree Martinez.
Yet everyone is a lawbreaker. So, everyone who has ever lived (Except Jesus Christ) is heading for correction in the Lake of Fire.

It is just that God calls and then he chooses. So it is up to God and God alone, to choose who he works on now and who he saves at the Lake of Fire.
We really don't have a lot to say in the matter.

But, it just came to me that if you agree with the Law and want to follow Christ, yet find it impossible to do so, you are in agreement with the Law and it is the Flesh that is holding you back.
This is in Romans, when Paul states that "the things that I want to do, I do not do, But the things that I do not want to do, I do!!"

This, I believe, Indicates that you are a follower of Christ. It is your Mind's conscious agreement that is the deciding factor and not necessarily what you do or do not do.
All of us have our problem areas (Of Sin), yet it is our minds agreement that show us where OUR HEART is at. And in my estimation, IS the deciding factor of who will or will not need correction in the Lake of Fire.

But, of course that is ALL UP TO GOD.
My Take on it.
Peace Brother.

Dante 
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psalmsinger

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2008, 11:01:47 AM »

Hello Arcturus,

I think you are right about some of the people that believe in hell.  the others may be like my sweet little momma who is aghast at my belief in "no hell", to the point that I'll go there if I don't believe in it. What fear is in her heart for me!  I ask her why on earth is it that important, seemingly more important to believe in hell than it is to believe in God.  She said that if I don't believe in hell, what is to keep me from sinning!!!!  I said mom, God has put it in my heart to not want to sin.  He is a good and loving God and if I mess up, which I will,  I will be chastised.  There are consequences other than being tortured for all eternity..... Jesus will WIN and Succeed in His mission of John 3:16-17. God is not a failure whose mission is thwarted by the puny "will of man".   Praise God

Barbara

Perhaps this can explain it.....

A person goes through life using the false teaching that there is a hell, as their way of letting off steam when they are hurt, abused or persecuted by others. They get a sense of righteous indignation and they feel better by thinking that anyone who upsets them will go to Hell and that God will punish them in eternal torment.

Then someone comes along and takes away their neat little method of getting past feeling bitter and vengeful which is their own pressure valve teaching that there is a Hell and in which they receive false satisfaction that God agrees with them. What are they going to do when they find out this is not true? Explode or tell the technician to get out of the kitchen and that their pressure cooker will not be exchanged for a new edition. How else are they going to feel better?

Not everyone is over joyed at this discovery that there is no pagan hell, because it serves a purpose in keeping in place the self justification in error of wishing others Hell for hurting them. Take that away and they will hate you or repent of their idol of false belief.

Repentance is the way to go but God is in charge of who He brings to repentance through His Goodness and Mercy.

All will repent in the end but some with more stripes, correction and more resistance to letting go of their false beliefs than others. As for those with less stripes and less resistance, it is for us to practice Mercy that God says is His method of judging us all. I know I need Mercy and Grace! Plenty of it continually.

I know that seeing it this way helps me to have pity on those who unconsciously and unknowingly depend on the false pain relief teachings of Babylon.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2008, 12:32:49 PM »

Perhaps this can explain it.....

A person goes through life using the false teaching that there is a hell, as their way of letting off steam when they are hurt, abused or persecuted by others. They get a sense of righteous indignation and they feel better by thinking that anyone who upsets them will go to Hell and that God will punish them in eternal torment.

Then someone comes along and takes away their neat little method of getting past feeling bitter and vengeful which is their own pressure valve teaching that there is a Hell and in which they receive false satisfaction that God agrees with them. What are they going to do when they find out this is not true? Explode or tell the technician to get out of the kitchen and that their pressure cooker will not be exchanged for a new edition. How else are they going to feel better?

Not everyone is over joyed at this discovery that there is no pagan hell, because it serves a purpose in keeping in place the self justification in error of wishing others Hell for hurting them. Take that away and they will hate you or repent of their idol of false belief.

Repentance is the way to go but God is in charge of who He brings to repentance through His Goodness and Mercy.

All will repent in the end but some with more stripes, correction and more resistance to letting go of their false beliefs than others. As for those with less stripes and less resistance, it is for us to practice Mercy that God says is His method of judging us all. I know I need Mercy and Grace! Plenty of it continually.

I know that seeing it this way helps me to have pity on those who unconsciously and unknowingly depend on the false pain relief teachings of Babylon.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

        Great Explanation Arcturus,

                                               I'm especially referring to Paragraphs 1 & 2, regarding those who have in the past been hurt by others and desire their punishment, what better way to punish them for what they did to me, by having God sentence them to Eternal Hell-fire, their justification is that these individuals did this to ME and I want them punished, because I'm HURT. While in the emotional state of all this, what they don't realize is that the punishment they want them to receive exceeds the crime committed. We see this on a small scale in Bad Parenting Methods, A father will punish a child in excess of the gravity of the infraction, whereas some parents have an anything goes attitude in their response to their childs bad behavior. The parent that over reacts like the first one mentioned is usually hurting inside and is taking it out on the child.

                                            All of us have the potential to react to some grave injustice against us by, at the very least, experiencing thoughts of the person that harmed us to " get theirs ", so to speak. We would do well to  keep in mind the scenario you expressed in the above paragraphs(1 & 2), when some terrible act is commited against us. In my case, a grievous act commited against one of my Daughters would be my test, I'd include my wife in that, but because she's tougher than I am, the perpetrator against her would have his hands full. When our Minds and Hearts are completely filled by Gods' Spirit by whats' expressed at Romans. 12:(7-12), we will experience peace of mind. In your second paragraph, it's almost as if people are saying: " HOW DARE YOU TELL ME GOD ISN'T GOING TORTURE PEOPLE FOREVER FOR WHAT THEY DID TO ME " I used to respond to people by saying, We all have our own list of people we would want punished and all our lists differ, based on the personal injustices that we've received. God is running the show and he is in control, not us, HIS WILL BE DONE, NOT OURS, besides everyone of us is incapable of providing perfect and fair justice towards those that have deeply harmed us.

                                                 Your Brother in Christ, Samson.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2008, 05:17:44 PM »

Dear Martinez

Thank you for posting that Scripture. It certainly is the litmus test of how we all stand before God. That being wretched, naked and pitiful. Our thoughts are certainly not God’s thoughts towards His creation because we still see pleasure and pain, goodness and wickedness and we still favour one above the other not counting our trials and tribulations as our reasons for joy and hope. Who has really embraced what James says 1 : 2 Consider it wholly JOYFUL, my brethren, whenever you are enveloped in or encounter TRIALS OF ANY SORT or fall into various temptations.
EXCUSE ME! WHAT! Consider it wholly JOYFUL when assaulted, harmed, attacked, abused, mistreated, insulted, cursed, hated….well you know…we all get the picture don’t we but. Consider it wholly JOYFUL? What is that! ?

Well now put this little snippet of advice together with the insight that we are given through Ray’s teaching regarding the pride of heart in the King of Assyria.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
God tells us that the Assyrian did only what He Himself intended for him to do. Paul, likewise, assures us that no one ever has or can go against God’s “intention or purpose.”  How then is God justified in punishing the King of Assyria or anyone else for doing what God “intended” for them to do? The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART”……

Assyria is just one of “ALL the kingdoms of the world” which are the personal domain of Satan the Devil. Did Satan exercise his “free will” over Assyria? Or did God say that He used Assyria like it was a club in God’s own hand?  God uses Satan over the nations as He wills Satan to will, not as Satan himself “free wills.” God uses the nations themselves to will as He wills the nations to will, not as the nations themselves “free will.” If we are to believe the Scriptures rather than the heresy of men, where does Satan or any of the nations possess “free will?”
unquote

So when we experience injustice, slander, persecution, it is God using our adversaries to crush out of us our arrogant hearts of self importance, self worth and self aggrandizement. This is a very painful process for us indeed as our idols of our hearts are dismantled and destroyed if we do not realize as James explains and as is shown in the above teachings from Ray, that this is God’s work on those children He would rebuke, scourge, discipline and bring to perfection.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2008, 05:20:12 PM »



Dear Dante

You state : I want to know everything about God and his plan,....and the universe (Not to much to ask huh??  ).
Consider the following :

Daniel 10 : 11, 12 And the angel said to me, O Daniel (Dante) you greatly beloved man, understand the words that I speak to you and stand upright, for you I am now sent. And while he was saying this word to me, I stood up trembling. Then he said to me, Fear not Daniel, (Dante) for from the first day that you set your mind and heart to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come as a consequence of and in response to your words.

Eph 1 : 17 For I always pray to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation of insight into mysteries and secrets in the deep and intimate KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints, His set-apart ones. And so that you can KNOW AND UNDERSTAND what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength.


Then you say quote : Just gotta love that fact that God will not let anyone perish. It still gives me a "Kick" to think ON THAT ONE!!!!

I prefer to see it this way Job 19 : 25 For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives, and at last He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin, even this body, had been destroyed, THEN from my flesh or without it, I SHALL SEE GOD.

1 COR 3 : 15 But if any person’s work is burned up under the test, he will suffer the loss of it all, losing his reward, thought he HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED,  but only as one who has passed through fire.

Jer 30 : 11 For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make a full and complete end of all the nations to which I have scattered you, but I will not make a full and complete end of you. But I will correct you in measure and with judgment and will no sense hold you guiltless or leave you unpunished.

Job 23 : 10 but HE knows the way that I take (no free will!) He has concern for it, appreciates, and pays attention to it. When He has tried me, I shall come forth as refined gold, pure and luminous. ….
…and Job got that right!  8)

You add an important foot note Dante as a PS…you say quote : Just talking about it and admitting to myself that I have a problem area, makes me feel better about it. Maybe this is a stepping stone and something I should do more often. Even if I have to talk to myself,....

The self you talk to is my self too. My self too is the wretched beast to whom I am chained until set free in full when Christ redeems me in full from my carnal grave.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2008, 05:21:51 PM »



Hello Barbara

I hear what you say about your moma. I too have the suffering of blood relatives who do not see yet. It is a chastising experience to feel love for our family and know that they are not yet given to see what we see or know what we know.

I think God is teaching me endurance, patience, trust and desire for my more carnal family to be healed and restored. Jesus after all, went about healing EVERYONE of ALL their diseases. WE too have to become like Him. Not inclusive of only who we choose should or should not be healed, but knowing, trusting and believing that all will be saved in the order ordained by the Wisdom and Understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a humbling exercise of discipline that hurts when we know our loved ones just do not get it yet.

Blessed peace be to you sister

Arcturus :)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2008, 05:23:55 PM »



Hello Samson

You said ….referring to Paragraphs 1 & 2,….

That is so funny. I wanted to delete those paragraphs.  ::) Shows how much I know heh! Then you come right in and up front show interest in those paragraphs I in my stupidity, wanted to delete!  :-\

You say…. what they don't realize is that the punishment they want them to receive exceeds the crime committed.

This comment made me recall that once I learnt that we are the most notorious judges against ourselves. We never forget our errors and replay them over and over again never getting past them, never forgiving ourselves and running into escapes to paralyse, not face or simple put behind us our errors. This we do without Christ. With Christ we repent, know we are the Beast, and begin the slow painful walk into the light of the knowledge that we have no free will and we depend in entirety on the Faith of Christ and His won victory death and resurrection till He comes again.

You nail it with this observation : everyone of us is incapable of providing perfect and fair justice towards those that have deeply harmed us.

This is the nature of the beast.  Incapable, imperfect, unfair and deeply harmful to all of us. As was Christ so crucified, so too do we die daily as He increases in us.

Blessed Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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Dante

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 07:04:27 AM »



Dear Dante

You state : I want to know everything about God and his plan,....and the universe (Not to much to ask huh??  ).
Consider the following :

Daniel 10 : 11, 12 And the angel said to me, O Daniel (Dante) you greatly beloved man, understand the words that I speak to you and stand upright, for you I am now sent. And while he was saying this word to me, I stood up trembling. Then he said to me, Fear not Daniel, (Dante) for from the first day that you set your mind and heart to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come as a consequence of and in response to your words.

Eph 1 : 17 For I always pray to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation of insight into mysteries and secrets in the deep and intimate KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints, His set-apart ones. And so that you can KNOW AND UNDERSTAND what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength.


Then you say quote : Just gotta love that fact that God will not let anyone perish. It still gives me a "Kick" to think ON THAT ONE!!!!

I prefer to see it this way Job 19 : 25 For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives, and at last He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin, even this body, had been destroyed, THEN from my flesh or without it, I SHALL SEE GOD.

1 COR 3 : 15 But if any person’s work is burned up under the test, he will suffer the loss of it all, losing his reward, thought he HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED,  but only as one who has passed through fire.

Jer 30 : 11 For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make a full and complete end of all the nations to which I have scattered you, but I will not make a full and complete end of you. But I will correct you in measure and with judgment and will no sense hold you guiltless or leave you unpunished.

Job 23 : 10 but HE knows the way that I take (no free will!) He has concern for it, appreciates, and pays attention to it. When He has tried me, I shall come forth as refined gold, pure and luminous. ….
…and Job got that right!  8)

You add an important foot note Dante as a PS…you say quote : Just talking about it and admitting to myself that I have a problem area, makes me feel better about it. Maybe this is a stepping stone and something I should do more often. Even if I have to talk to myself,....

The self you talk to is my self too. My self too is the wretched beast to whom I am chained until set free in full when Christ redeems me in full from my carnal grave.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)


Thanks so much for the inspiration Arcturus.
I appreciate the passages and have found much wisdom in the words that you have wrote.
I have read them over about 5 or 6 times fully.
Thank you and God bless!

Dante
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Hell vs. the Lake of Fire
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 04:21:36 PM »

Hi Dante

You thank me for the words I wrote. Well I did not write them. They are God's Words and they shall not return to Him empty.

You do me well brother that you have read them with sobre consideration.

Blessed Peace be to you

Arc.

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