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David:
Wow Musicman, they pay you for performing in services? My old Church owes me some money  ;)
Seriously, as has been pointed out by CEO, it is your profession, therefore when you perform you should be paid if that is what has been agreed. If a Christian electrician was employed to do some wiring in a Jewish Synagogue, or a Muslim mosque, or a Church that conflicted with his denomination, would he refuse to do it and would he be Biblically right in doing so? I couldn't answer that myself, but it sure would limit ones options to make a living were you to ONLY work for people that believed exactly as you do. For all a Christian bus driver knows, he could be picking up a member of Anton Levey's church of satan. So long as you don't partake of them spiritually, do nothing illegal or immoral, thats about as good as you can do.

1 Cor 10:31-33 ........whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

I had a hard time with this scripture for a long time. I worried myself to distraction as whether all that I did was to the Glory of God. Well as carnal human beings, the chances are the answer is no we are not, not 24/7. But so long as we recognise it, and strive to do all to the Glory of God 24/7, we're on the right path.
A brother who was an elder in my old Church once said to me because I played in a heavy Rock band (that plays mostly Christian songs) "I don't think what you are doing in this band of yours is acceptable, certainly not in this Church anyway. You're a member of our worship team, it just doesn't seem right that you should do this as well." I could have been more gracious with my reply, but it just rubbed my carnal mind up the wrong way at the time. I knew he was a manager of a local supermarket. I said to him "Well I'll do you a deal, you go pull that beam out of your eye, quit your job at thew supermarket that sells soft pornographic magazines, magazines that promote homosexuality, hard liquor, violent movies and video games, and I'll quit my band." It didn't go down well.
Be blessed
David.

Chris R:
I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R

David:

--- Quote from: Chris R on March 25, 2008, 05:11:17 AM ---I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R

--- End quote ---

Hi Chris. Yes is was a wise crack and I shouldn't have said it. Although the point I was making was the very point you have made here, there's pretty much nothing we can do these days where temptation is not around us, and no occupation that does not have some connection, however vague to something sinful.

phazel:

--- Quote from: Craig on March 23, 2008, 05:41:28 PM --- But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.


--- End quote ---


OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will.   According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.

hillsbororiver:
Exposing Those Who Contradict

Part 3

FREE WILL

"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).

But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses, that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.

The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!

The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."

Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause. And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simply confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).

Read Mat. 7:18-23. Our Lord speaks of a large group of people (many), " ... in that day," who will justify their Christian walk by: "prophesying in Christ's name," "casting out demons," and "doing many wonderful works." (Ver. 22). Sounds pretty good to me. But there seems to be a problem when Christ says: " ... depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Ver. 23).

"Iniquity" is not the proper translation here. The Greek word is anomon-UN-LAWness or LAWLESSNESS. Man thinks by nature he is above the law in that "free will" is, itself, lawless. Thinking himself equipped with "free will" man feels a certain equality with his Creator. "Human free will," therefore, becomes the epitome of man's lawlessness. Man thinks himself a potter. However, to man's chagrin, God says He is the Potter and man is the "pot" (Isa. 64:8).

And God hates pride (Prov. 6:17, 16;18, 29:23), which is the bed-buddy of human "free will."

Anyone who is so deluded as to think he possesses powers so great as to be able to thwart the very Will of God, is certainly disqualified from being a teacher of the Word of God!

"Sin is lawlessness" (I Jn. 3:4). Free will is lawlessness.

http://bibletruths.com/part3.htm

This is a concept that is not the easiest to fully comprehend but if you really meditate on all the implications, when you were born (hour, day, year), who you were born to, your height, your intellect, the color of your hair and eyes, the country, state, city you were born in, what school you went to, the people who are/were your friends or enemies in the neighborhood you grew up in, the teachers you had in school.

Can anyone make an honest claim that they themselves chose when to be born or who their parents would be? You can "choose" your friends but from a finite set of people, you can "choose" do well in school (assuming you have the intellect) and the teachers you have are committed and competent but how many of these choices are "free choices?" The things that you can actually choose were caused by circumstances too numerable to list.

It is not the natural way for us to think as we have been indoctrinated with this false "free will" concept for all of our lives up until now, it is also a bit of an ego buster to contemplate how little we actually really control, we can attempt to make the best choices given our present understanding but when you really think about it the choices we are presented with are caused by an external Force greater than any and every man.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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