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God=Love
David:
--- Quote from: Dante on March 28, 2008, 12:44:49 PM ---Ok,......I got ya now. I hope,....LOL! ;D
I must have missed that in Ray's Teaching.
So,..unless I am mistaken, you are telling me that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection because it states here:
Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
BUT, I don't know that this really states that John will not be in the first resurrection. I think that it merely points out that we have the potential (Or maybe better stated WILL BE) Greater in the Kingdom of Heaven since we are under a different age and given different promises from God.
BUT, what you are stating (Unless I am really off base) is that THESE people had GREAT LOVE, Yet will NOT have our position in the Kingdom. And a lesser one of US, with LESSER LOVE, WILL have a greater position in the kingdom, since we were born in a different time period and just happen to have that opportunity.
Did I totally mess up your idea??
Let me know, cause I am really getting stoked by talking about this kind of thing.
And thanks you guys for the help.
You don't know how much I appreciate it!!
Love always.
Dante :D
--- End quote ---
Hi Dante,
Think of it this way............
If some people were in a race and I said to you "The person running last in that race is a faster runner than you......", does that mean you are in the race? No. If you were you would be last, not the person who I said was last. If the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John, then he cannot be there, otherwise John would be least.
Be blessed
David.
CEO:
Dante
I see your point as being extremely simple. You agree that only through Christ we are saved, the question is how does Christ manifest himself?
If it is through love then many without the scriptures have experienced Christ.
God is light. God is love. God is truth. God is the word. To be saved we need to believe the truth AND be sanctified by the holy spirit. 2 Thes. 2:13
Who has God sent the holy spirit to? Without it there is no salvation. But it is not by itself, belief in and love of the truth is also required. And how will we know the truth without the word, the scripture?
I think other religions and philosophies and approaches do catch glimpses of love and the truth but they do not have the word and the spirit. Only the elect have the spirit and the word (in the form of the scriptures). Being one of the elect is what we aspire. None of us knows. Either way we know we are in God's love and secure.
Askseeknock
Charles
psalmsinger:
Beloved,
I see you have reference to Ezekiel 44................and it makes me think how important it is for the elect to be judged by God now, conquer the carnal mind, die to our fleshly desires, suffer trials and persecutions in His name, and know that all is vanity here on earth. Jesus is the supreme example of being able to take on the flesh without sin.... Only God through Jesus Christ is able to accomplish this! It is not possible for man at all, but with God all things are possible. It is His work on the vessels of honor! Wow!Praise God!
Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
--- Quote from: Beloved on March 27, 2008, 10:24:48 AM ---This is an interesting thought I can understand your concern but about these people but I think your premise may be oversimplified.. ?Which God?
With telecommunication and literacy I do not know how many today could not have heard the gospel (even if it was the ugly one about hell). If they heard that they proably rejected it because of thier own traditions and because God did not open their eyes. God is responsible for all.
I also think that all men even those in the past that never were exposed still have a major problem..... SELF...the one on the throne .......During ones lifetime there would be numerouse occasions for this to show itself....every baby is Self centered.
Look at these buddist right now some are resorting to brute physical albeit it 'may be' defensive but what about in their mental thoughts. Remember Jesus held us to a higher standard. Of most religions Buddism on the surface has some correct ideas but they are achieved by self. They are work based.
Jesus Christ came to earth as a sacrafice and example to show mankind that death to self is the way to life. We cannot do this on our own. Our flesh is a trap.
The elect are suppose to go through this fire wile they live now.....Ask yourself what kind of fire your are going through now....many are having difficult times...not always physical....I believe the LOF will be the perfect learning experience for each person....
Perhaps that is what the elect will do ......guide them through this experience so they ....learn righteousness. The elect will take off their linen and put on the wool and enter the physical realm when the people of the 2nd ressurection will dwell.
Like Paul who saw himself as the chief sinner....the elect will know the mercy of God because none of them were mighty renown rich etc....they were the bottom of the barrel in a way. Like Jesus they know the flesh and the struggles that need to be overcomed....
I do not look on the Lake of Fire as a bad thing but more as a rectifier....a do-over....a perfecter. It was God who decided on which team you played the first time...now he is bringing everyone back into the spiritual family after this extremely limiting flesh experience.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3002.0.html
There will be no I us or them there will only be the Father. All in All
Beloved
--- End quote ---
Dante:
Hi Everyone, sorry for the long Pause. I had a Kung Fu test on Saturday, and It took days to make sure I had everything down correctly. Plus the class itself took 4 hours of grueling, intense pain. And as I am not a young man anymore :-[, and not in the best of health, It takes me much time to do things and then recover.
So that is why I have not been to the boards that much.
But the good news is that I passed and only had one minor flaw in my performance, which by Strict Chinese standards is very, very good,. This was told to me by my immediate instructor. In fact he was even shocked that I did so well.
Yahoo for me,…LOL! Hehehe.
My test was in Xingyiquan, a very power demanding art, and I had to do Two routines to NEAR perfection.
It was great, but now I just want to soak in a tub for a week!! LOL!! Sorry to babble again! ;)
Okey Dokey.
I read the 12th part of the Lake of Fire series all over again. (Thank you by the way for that ;D).
I feel good every time I read Ray's Stuff. It is so cool. It is like a Jigsaw puzzle being put together before your very eyes.
Makes me feel Good inside!!
Ok, John the baptist is not going to be in the first resurrection.
Seems kind of like being at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and being the last one to get one of the LONG lettered and numbered license plates and then right after you step out of line with "Plates in Hand", they start handing out really, really short license plates. Since they ran out of the long ones.
Seems like John got kind of short changed.
But I am cool with that!! There are plenty of people who were born after the day of Pentecost that will NOT be CHOSEN ANYWAY. And that is up to God and that is COOL with me (As if God needs my ok!!).
Just stating this so that you know where my mind is at. NOT, to imply that God needs my Blessing. So please don’t misunderstand. Whatever God does will be True and Righteous is my BELIEF!
But, anyway, this does not really seem to drive home the fact that LOVE is not the determining factor as to what makes a Christian a Christian.
CEO, you nailed what I was trying to say, on the head!!
When you said,….I see your point as being extremely simple. You agree that only through Christ we are saved ( I Agree totally), the question is how does Christ manifest himself? (Exactly CEO!!)
If it is through love then many without the scriptures have experienced Christ.
God is light. God is love. God is truth. God is the word (Right, and this is OUR sticking point on the issue, although I understand that Jesus is the VERY WORD OF GOD). To be saved we need to believe the truth (YES, But how do we know that God does not IMPUTE the Truth to others without DIRECT knowledge of the word. Might not the Word, (that is Jesus Christ himself), be given to others by other means??) AND be sanctified by the holy spirit. 2 Thes. 2:13
Who has God sent the holy spirit to? Without it there is no salvation (I agree fully). But it is not by itself, belief in and love of the truth is also required (And this is the point that I am trying to make, that God MAY send the Holy Spirit to people without revelation of the EXACT and TOTAL Knowledge of the word being taught in all it‘s Glory). And how will we know the truth without the word, the scripture?
CEO, if Love is the Truth of the scripture, then is it not possible that MAN can speak in love to one another without saying it in terms of EXACT Christian vernacular?? Does God require we speak chapter and verse to get his message out. And what is that message? To love our brethren, for in doing so, We show LOVE to GOD. Even if said person knows it or not. This would seem to explain why people at Judgment seemed to be caught OFF guard when Christ said that when you do this to the least of my brethren, you have done it to me.
I mean, MAY we all not agree that it is not impossible for God to CALL and Choose a retarded person, who has limited capacity for the understanding of the deep things of God? This person may not have ALL things down perfectly yet understand the CORE of what Jesus and God has revealed??
And since God said this:
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
And this:
3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."
And this:
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
So if EVERYONE who LOVES his fellow man has God abiding in him. Then this and this alone MUST be a litmus test for Salvation! Am I off base on the word of God? For if we love our fellow man, God says we LOVE HIM.
So to put it as simply as possible and if I am not incorrect in my Logic.
If we love the brethren we are showing love to God. If we show love to the brethren, then God abides in us, and HIS love is perfected in us. THUS we are fulfilling God’s commandments to 1) Love God 2) Love our Brethren. The Two commandments that Jesus Gave us. And in doing so, we have fulfilled the LAW. NOT BY OUR OWN POWER, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
As CEO and many of you have pointed out, Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And ONLY by Faith is ONE (A person) TRULY Saved. I totally Agree with this.
But, as I have mentioned the retarded person. How can he understand the DEEP things of God??
And YET may he not also partake of God’s Love and Grace.
If the retarded person, with MUCH limited knowledge, Can be saved and among the ELECT. Is it not possible that someone with no access to the word of God ,out of circumstance, not know ENOUGH about God’s character and nature to NATURALLY fulfill the requirements of God’s. And that this was God's plan for this person?
In other words, God changes and saves not by the LETTER OF THE WORD, BUT BY THE HEART OF IT.
And that Heart Being Love,...that is ITSELF JESUS CHRIST.
Let me make this very, very clear. Any perfect love does not come from the person themselves. But from God himself. Without God choosing a person, they would have no choice but to be what they are. A vial sin filled human being. But if God decides to choose them, in his own way, who are we to question God’s methods?
My question boils down to this ! How much knowledge of God is enough to have faith?
If I could get an answer (Biblically of course) to this question, I think that I would have a much better idea of who God is choosing in the “Here and Now”.
Peace be with you all, and God bless.
Dante
PS. Sorry this was AGAIN long winded.
hillsbororiver:
Hi Dante,
You asked; "How much knowledge of God is enough to have faith?"
Peter describes the spiritual progression of a believer who is called and chosen to be of the elect, to be prepared for that great commission of bringing the rest of humanity to Him. He has planned from the very beginning who those chosen would be. (Eph 1:4)
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.26
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
As you can see there appears to be an order to how we progress and to what each step eventually leads to, look at it as being similar to what you have experienced in Kung Fu. You must first have the desire (faith) to learn the art before you can begin the journey of becoming proficient in it. You must approach the instructions by your teacher/master with a reverence and belief that what you are being led through is essential to learning this complex discipline. You have to follow through not just with lip service but with action (virtue). Do you see where I am going here? You cannot become a Kung Fu Master simply by "loving" the beauty of this martial art you must submit and be led step by step through the rigors of study, diet, exercise, practice, competitions, progressing from one level to the next you cannot skip through any parts and proceed to Master status by simply declaring your love for it. A true love of Kung Fu would be shown by the fruits of your progression as you proceed from learning stances, footwork, kicks, hand techniques, etc. through bare hand training, weapons training before you are ready to even start sparring training.
Think of God selecting who will be masters of His plan of salvation for humanity and what they must learn and what atrributes they must acquire.
So getting back to your question it is faith which begets knowledge not the other way around and faith is something we of ourselves are incapable of having unless He chooses to give it from above.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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