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lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Gene Balthrop on April 02, 2008, 08:24:53 PM ---Alex..... When Jesus made that statement of ,"before Abraham i Am." Does not say in what way he was before Abraham, Jesus could have Just as easily meant He was in the plan of God before Abraham existed. There are no scriptures that show a preexistence activity. In Fact God said He (alone) created the heavens and all things in it Himself even using the phrase (BY MYSELF) which would show no one was with Him when He did it. The other logical question would be, why would God take a preexisting being Kill him and rebirth Him and Kill him again. What example would that be to us, but if God brought into existence a Human being without other presupposed advantages as a super preexistence being would have, and caused this ordinary man to walk perfectly that would give all of us encouragement. Because God took an ordinary man and perfected Him, As He can us also, now that would be something. But taking a super perfect Being and He walks perfect what does that mean to me, what does a God have to overcome. Not to mention it Say's Jesus (Learned Obedience) by the things He suffered, which shows He didn't have it before. Hardly a description of a super being who created everthing. If Jesus is our example He had to be exactly like us in ever way, not just in some ways , but every way. This is a big subject and I am not saying i understand it totally i am still learning, I will listen to Ray's tape on the subject and consider it further. Thanks for all the imput.
peace to you all...........gene
--- End quote ---
Gene remember that it is the SUM of GOD's WORD that is truth.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!"
Looking at the SUM of GOD'S WORD it is clear that Christ did exist before His physical existance.
For example;
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
You say this "Also when Jesus was realting to the Glory He had before the world does not specifically mean He was their, it could mean the glory that was afforded Him before he ever came into existence. "
Yet what does Christ say?
"which I had with thee before the world was"
To have something with someone means to share it with them. Christ had glory with the Father before the world was.
Christ doesn't say "Father glorify thouh me with thine own self with the glory that you had foredained for me before the world was."
Do you see That? I don't think so. You are wrestling the scriptures to your own destruction.
Heres another verse that indicates Christ was indeed existing before the world. On top of the many others shown.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Christ could not be slain for the world before it was even created, if he did not exist, offcourse. Is this to hard?
You say; There are no scriptures that show a preexistence activity. In Fact God said He (alone) created the heavens and all things in it Himself even using the phrase (BY MYSELF) which would show no one was with Him when He did it.
Actualy there is.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness:"
LET US, US WHO? Jesus and THE FATHER. THEY ARE ONE. ONE GOD.
Joh 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."
If no one has heard the father or seen his shape and yet moses heard God and saw God's back, THAN WHO WAS IT?!
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The spokesmen for God offcourse! The Logos of God, JESUS CHRIST!
Exodus 33:23 "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
Jesus CHrist told us that no one has seen the Father's shape! Yet Moses saw God's back parts! Moses saw God's shape! How?! Is Christ contradicting His very own words in the OT? Offcourse not! Moses saw Jesus Christ's back! Not the Father's!
Understand? Yet with your understanding there comes about a contradiction. Now either YOU contradict God's Words or God is a liar! Who wants to be the first to blaspheme God? I know i don't. God is NOT a liar and so perhaps you are mistaken?
God created the heavens alone, you are correct and NO ONE argues that! Because there is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ and the FATHER!
1 Corinthians 8:5-7 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him
Did you catch that?
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him[/b]
What does ALL THINGS mean? All things except "the heavens and the earth" of genesis? Or does all things actualy Mean all things [includeing the heavens and earth back in genesis 1:1]? You get it? Nothing came into existance without CHRIST because it was through Christ that ALL THINGS were made, includeing the heavens and the earth!
Another Verse stateing the exact same thing.
"For by HIM [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:15-19).
There's that word ALL again.
Here we see that there is one God because Christ is equal with God as we are told;
"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and WAS made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).
The phrase "But made Himself of no reputation" actualy literaly translates as being = Gk: keno�o�"to make empty, abase, neutralize" King James Margin: "emptied himself of His privileges"
If Christ did not exist before His physical birth He could NOT empty Himself seeing as He didn't exist! Also if you say Christ recieved Glory which was foreordained to Him THROUGH his learning of obedience after his physical birth than what possibly could Christ EMPTY HIMSELF of when He was born? According to you, He had no glory before He was born because He didn't exist! Kind of hard to empty oneself of nothing...
You say; "The other logical question would be, why would God take a preexisting being Kill him and rebirth Him and Kill him again"
What are you talking about? When did God kill Him and then bring Him into this world and than kill Him again? I see the first physical birth and than his physical death but i don't see two deaths anywhere.
You must remember God calls things that are NOT as though they were. Christ died once for the sins of the world.
You say; "but if God brought into existence a Human being without other presupposed advantages as a super preexistence being would have, and caused this ordinary man to walk perfectly that would give all of us encouragement"
Ah, now i see. You are not baseing this idea on scripture, but on personal reasons.
You say; Not to mention it Say's Jesus (Learned Obedience) by the things He suffered, which shows He didn't have it before. Hardly a description of a super being who created everthing.
Well one could argue that if man became like God in the garden to know both good and evil than where did God get this knowledge of Evil? God is good and in Him there is no darkness. If God was the only one around In the beginning before He created anything than where did the idea of Evil come from? If you say from His mind, than where did He get the knowledge of it? Remember that He is completely and totaly good and in Him is no evil or darkness and He was the only one around, where could the knowledge have possibly come from? Ah but you see, this brings about greater and deeper questions, some to which we might have to wait until His comeing to find out.
On a similar point;
Christ learning obedience only shows that He wasn't glorified without reason before the world was created, there was something [which we don't know what] He went through, to obtain this glory. Much like the Father knew evil, when evil didn't exist. What did the Father deal with, that brought about His knowledge of evil? What did the SON have to deal with that taught Him obedience and gave Him the right to be glorified?
Now let's use logic as you say. If you start thinking this deep, you start to wonder.
If God created Christ and made Him perfect than why can't He just do to us, what He did with Christ? After all, it was the Father's works Christ did and it was the Father's grace through His spirit that gave Christ the ability to remain sinless. So why doesn't God just use the same method on everyone, like that God has a million trillion son's and daughters that are all perfect like Christ! Problem solved right? WRONG PALE FACE. To quote ray ;)
You see, thats not what happened. Christ went through something before He came here, something that allowed Him to be glorified, what? We don't know, we are not told. Yet we know He went through something because He had to learn, just like the rest of us to obtain what He had. He was the first to do it and through Him were all things created and like Him, so must we LEARN through the THINGS WE SUFFER so that WE MAY Be like GOD and SHARE in HIS GLORY.
I can only pray this has reached you well.
In Christ with love,
Alex
P.S. I thought i'd throw these in here;
"Him which is, and which was, and which is to come" Rev. 1:4).
"I am alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Re. 1:8).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:11).
"I am the first and the last" (Rev. 1:17)
"I am He that lives, and was DEAD; and, behold, I am alive" (Rev. 1:18).
"the first and the last, which was DEAD, and is alive" (Rev. 2:8).
"Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8).
"Oh Lord God Almighty, which art, and was, and are to come" (Rev. 11:17).
"Thou art righteous, O Lord, which are, and was, and shall be" (Rev. 16:5).
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely" (Rev. 21:6).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev. 22:13).
Kat:
Hi Gene,
This is indeed a big subject, but Ray has spoken quite a bit on who Jesus Christ is, was and will be. It is so different from what is taught in the churches, but if you study what Ray has to say you will see it is absolutely Scriptural. I can give you this excerpt from his article in the Lake of fire series part 6 'TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html ----------------------
WHO IS THIS MAN, THE CHRIST?
Just Who is Jesus Christ? Many have but a superficial knowledge of the real Jesus. And those who have studied the Scriptures deeply, are but scratching the surface of the real Christ. Jesus Christ is a whole lot more than the humble carpenter from Nazareth, Who was born of a virgin and died on a cross. JESUS CHRIST IS EVERYTHING! Everything that ever was, is, or shall be is found in Christ! He is the very CREATOR, SUSTAINER, AND ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. God the Father has never directly made Himself known to humanity. It was Jesus Christ Who came to reveal the Father to mankind.
God the Father,
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His SON, Whom He hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, by whom also He MADE THE WORLDS; Who being the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and upholds ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:2-3).
"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power or darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON: In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM [Jesus Christ], AND FOR HIM [Jesus Christ]:
And He is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by Him ALL THINGS CONSIST. And He is the HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH: Who is the beginning, the firstborn form the dead, that in ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE. For it pleased the Father that IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL. And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL UNTO HIMSELF; by Him, I say, whether in earth or in heaven" (Col. 1:12:20).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ENDING, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY" (Rev. 1:08).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM: and without Him was not any thing made that was made. IN HIM WAS LIFE; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-3).
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham WAS, I AM" (John 8:58). "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you" (Ex. 3:14).
Jesus Christ was the GOD of the Old Testament! Jesus Christ was JEHOVAH! Moses SAW and HEARD Jehovah, yet John tells us that,
"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE HAS DECLARED HIM" (John 1:18).
And this,
"And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither HEARD HIS VOICE at any time, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE" (John 5:37).
"For the Father judges no man, but has committed ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON" (John 5:22).
"And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH" (Matt. 28:18).
"Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST" (I Cor. 10:1-4).
And contrary to popular Christian tradition, Jesus did NOT say that He would build His church upon Peter. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Greek, petros, a piece of detached stone or rock], and upon THIS ROCK` [Greek, petra {a different kind of rock}, a mass of rock that cannot be moved as in Matt. 7:24 and 27:60, which is distinct from petros which is a smaller detached rock that can be moved] will I built MY CHURCH; and the gates of the unseen [hades] shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus named Simon, "Cephas"(Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas which is Chaldee):
"And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone" (John 1:42),
that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.
----------------------------------------------
Here are the links to the Audios of the Nashville Conference 2007 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?'
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_3.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_4.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_5.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_6.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7A.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7B.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_8.mp3
Here is the transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Hope this helps :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
joyful1:
I'm going to have to agree with what Roger has said here....well put Roger!
I was listening to one of Ray's audios just last night where he was explaining how eternity can be thought of ... of course, he taught using the symbol of a ring....he said to look at the ring and see that you can't find "a beginning" and you can't see where it ends either! And that is because "it HAS NO beginning or ending." But the phrase that really struck me was that he said; "Eternity does not GO in a circle...it IS the circle!"
My understanding is that this is the way Christ is...because He IS the WORD and WAS with God in the beginning!
Peace be multiplied to you today
Joyce :)
Falconn003:
--- Quote ---I'm going to have to agree with what Roger has said here....well put Roger!
Joyce
--- End quote ---
Joyce and to whom else reads all THESE post in Bible-Truth's forum, Including the articles by Ray.
This is God's Word, what God SAYS to us all, And finnaly What God PUTs WELL within us all.
I of myself take no credit. GLORY and THANKS be always to God Our Father.
Peace and understanding unto you Joyce and fellow readers. :)
Rodger
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: joyful1 on April 03, 2008, 05:24:45 AM ---I'm going to have to agree with what Roger has said here....well put Roger!
I was listening to one of Ray's audios just last night where he was explaining how eternity can be thought of ... of course, he taught using the symbol of a ring....he said to look at the ring and see that you can't find "a beginning" and you can't see where it ends either! And that is because "it HAS NO beginning or ending." But the phrase that really struck me was that he said; "Eternity does not GO in a circle...it IS the circle!"
My understanding is that this is the way Christ is...because He IS the WORD and WAS with God in the beginning!
Peace be multiplied to you today
Joyce :)
--- End quote ---
Hey Joyce, i was wondering ifyou could link me to the audio in which ray speaks about eternity. I don't believe i've heard that one yet and am interested in hearing it =]
Or perhaps imjust forgetfull :D
God bless,
Alex
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