> General Discussions
Sons and Daughters of God
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Arcturus,
Hi Sorin!
So what you're saying is;
Not what I am saying but what is taught here in BT and what God is saying….
both the things we have, and the things we don't are either given to us, or they're not. And there's nothing
we can do of our own free will to produce it?
You see that is just it brother. We DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. Caps only for emphasis not to shout or be high handed but to emphasise that until we are introduced to understanding that at first our weakness is beyond our comprehension, we carry on believing that we have some power. We have no power but that which is given to us. Remember what Jesus said to Pontias Pilate? Of course you do!
John 19 : 11 You would not have any power or authority whatsoever against Me if it were not given you from above.
Predestination comes to mind-and basically one shouldn't look down upon a homeless person and call him a loser because that is his lot in life.
Quite right especially in the light of these words.
Luke 9 : 58 Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has no where to lay His Head.
Likewise, the rich person thumbing his nose at him, was predestined to be a rich, snobby- well, you get my point.
Yes.
So what you're saying is, that homeless person can not do anything to get himself out of that situation like finding a job, and working his way up to at least, poor, but no longer homeless, unless God predestined that for him.
You can take this further. Some are born in a circumstance of for example, a three month life span due to poverty, malnutrition, absence of medical services etc. Some are born into ( worldly ) Royalty.
So how is it the homeless person's fault,
….fault…fault is the twin of blame. Where there is fault there has to be blame. Blame reminds me of the beam in the eye.
he can't help who he is, nor can he 'of his own free will produce anything'.
.... Free will...... No one has free will but this does not exonerate or excuse accountability and consequences. I believe we learn through our CONSEQUENCES. The heart is wicked and the consequences of such wickedness train, chastise, teach and instruct through the edifying ways in which effects follow causes.
Can't really call someone lazy if they lack free will...
Oops. How did you get to that conclusion? :) Just because Judas was not made to obey, follow and be faithful to Christ does not put the blame, fault, error and accountability with God. Why should it? If it did then Judas is a puppet of God’s which we know non of us are! WE all are created for a purpose and destiny and we are each individually assigned our circumstances and out comes of those circumstances because remember…God is the potter and we are the clay. Right?
and are bound to their destiny in life.
Bound…BOUND…to DESTINY? What, where, no…NO. We are bound to VANITY not destiny. We are subject to vanity in a way that only God can deliver us. That is bound as I see it.
Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.
And can of their own free-will produce nothing, since they lack it.
I feel some thin ice here because to approach any conclusion that no fruit in a life is due to no free will is actually to excuse those who have no fruit in their lives from ever having to run the race set before them. Just how I see this. To explain : If no race is set before them like the person born in a country where their life expires in three months after birth due to CIRCUMSTANCES, then yes okay. That life has no race set before them as we know and understand the race which is to take up the cross and follow HIM.
Also, Ray said that a person can not commit suicide unless that is what God pre-determined that they would do, and when they would do it, not sooner, nor later.
Right.
So how can we look down on people who have committed suicide, or have attempted, and failed.
How can we look down on ANYONE? Easy. Take a little holier than thou pride, mix it with the tonic of deception, add a dash of illusion that humans have power and free will, mix it thoroughly with the false teachings of Hell, Tithing, Free Will Mythology and shake it up and then lay the potion on to the minds alter of idolatry and rebellion. One bow, just one, should make a full fledged Pharisee of religion who can look down on anyone and everyone except himself by elevating him/her to unimagined heights of self glory.
Weren't they just doing what they were predestined to do?
Yes but they are to be held accountable and therein is their victory Sorin and their pardon and their chastisement and their restoration without which they are nothing and God did not make us to be nothing!
They were dealt a terrible hand, and couldn't deal with it anymore, or saw
that there's no reason for them to live.
Yes. True and they not God has to be held ACCOUNTABLE. Can you see that ACCOUNTABILITY is such a precious gift! God is responsible for this gift and we are so blessed for it because via accountability we are restored from all the sins, errors, failures, illusions, mistakes and gross carnality because there are consequences. I believe God is a God of consequences. HE is the CAUSE and creator of consequences.
Take an example. You get caught speeding. You should get a fine. You don’t because God causes the Cop to take pity and let you off or God causes the Cop to book you. Who is in charge?
And don't try saying, that, ' there is a reason, God, loves them '
Okay! :) There is however a reason, a very BIG reason why WE should love GOD right? Can’t see much reason for God to love us but He does! 8)
and all that, because if they're pre-destined to do it, they will do it. And there's nothing you can do to stop it.
So true. BUT, if you are predestined to STOP it, there is nothing you can do to but interfere and be caused to stop it. If not. NOT. Agreed.
They had their time to be born, got dealt that bad hand, and now it's time for them to go.
Hey! They are not dead yet! ;) Are you pronouncing their time? No one knows the time of death except for Christ.
Rev 1 : 18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of death and Hades.
I hate how Christians condemn suicide victims to an eternity in hell.
Try not to hate. They do only what they are able to do at this time and they are going to be held accountable just like and as those who self destruct.
I mean, my God!... haven't they suffered enough on earth?
Why do I think that perhaps you know of someone who has committed suicide? :( It is sad. and if so, they who have committed suicide will be held accountable. That is not unreasonable not because they have suffered on earth but because they have killed and God says thy shalt not kill. When they see the pain that they cause to others through suicide, then I think they will receive the deeper understanding for the love they thought they did not have and believed rather in the lie that self destruction was the way to go. I do not believe anyone here in BT thinks that God will inflict pain on anyone for the sake of it but it will be done to correct and hone each one of us into His image and ways and remove our limited thinking and motives from us which are self destructive.
Now these ******** want them to suffer more; insanely more, unspeakable
pain and misery for all eternity.
Yep. Sounds like the Hell believers who will also need to be corrected and will be. Is that not wonderful. They will be because God has a plan for each and every one of us!
Just some thoughts that were on my mind this morning,
Sorin
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings Sorin. They are important and have merit.
Peace be to you brother
Arcturus :)
phazel:
--- Quote ---Can't really call someone lazy if they lack free will...
Oops. How did you get to that conclusion? Just because Judas was not made to obey, follow and be faithful to Christ does not put the blame, fault, error and accountability with God. Why should it? If it did then Judas is a puppet of God’s which we know non of us are! WE all are created for a purpose and destiny and we are each individually assigned our circumstances and out comes of those circumstances because remember…God is the potter and we are the clay. Right?
--- End quote ---
I think the greater picture here is the tone of negativity we as humans place on fault. Someone may be indeed lazy, but if we are to believe that God is responsible for the circumstances that brought about that laziness and that a lazy person could have never been anything but the lazy person we might see before us then what judgment are we to see?
What we have to remind ourselves of is that if indeed we have no free will and everything is as God intended then we must see the lazy person as having a purpose even if our human reasoning would look down upon the lazy person.
This however does not keep the circumstances from happening that might cause someone to put the lazy person down, was that not intended also, or someone may try to encourage the lazy person.
As me and my son talk about this free will thing, we often find ourselves in an agreement that no matter how it appears, we get the feeling that we should still tell the lazy person to get a job, work harder, find something to do, etc. ;D
joyful1:
Phazel--we've been discussing this very thing at our house lately....
and here is my personal conclusion (*at this point):
1) judge not before the TIME
2) judge only WITHIN, God judges those WITHOUT the court
The Elect will judge the rest of the world and angels later...
HOWever! In THIS time, we are given certain boundaries to our judging, chiefly the two mentioned above...
So it makes SENSE that THOSE who "seriously cannot help being lazy" are in the group that we DON"T judge....for now.
This actually PROMOTES peace, in my opinion. Because when a CHILD who is a natural born "rebel" (and I've raised BOTH kinds!)......steals something from your dresser drawer....and you confront that rebel with the evidence....they turn into a HOT HEADED fireball! Confront the same aged child who is naturally submissive to the parent and they get teary-eyed and repentive.
You could look at the rebels as "without the court,"
flesh, not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be!
You could look at the child who is willing to "accept instruction" as the one God predestined to rule. Now this child may have been "the prodigal son" at one point....but still when they submit to the father's authority, then that all changes.
Any comments?
indianabob:
--- Quote from: Stevernator on April 05, 2008, 03:08:12 AM ---Hi Sorin,
I don't think musicman said anything about us lacking anything. Of course God will provide for us in unimaginable ways but isn't it possible for us to gain pleasure from serving God. There are many scriptures that speak of gaining pleasure from obeying the Lord.
Psa 37:4
4 Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.
Neh 8:10
10 Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."
Joh 15:10-11
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
etc etc.
Peace be with you,
Steve
--- End quote ---
Thank you Steve,
I like the way you put the point. We will get pleasure from serving others and especially serving first our Lord Jesus for perhaps 1000 years and after that when the New Jerusalem is here on the earth, serving the Creator Father God Himself.
Please keep in mind that God is Creator. When He placed Adam and Eve in the beautiful Garden paradise that He had created God offered to share the creation process with them from that point forward. Giving them dominion over the whole earth and its contents. Announcing that they would produce living beings with the potential to live forever. Later when the next age is complete, we will participate in another age of creativity and of building and sharing ideas and plans for the future AND perhaps traveling out into the Universe, whatever the composition of it may be at that future time.
I don't believe that we will then have Free Will any more than we do now. God reserves the authority to maintain His sovereignty for all time. We may have multiple choices and opportunities to explore with our mind, but God will always be the only source of all things.
One of the advantages of "child like" belief and trust, is the full confidence that our lives will be thrilling beyond measure and always stimulating and enjoyable.
Warm regards to one and all, Indianabob
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