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Author Topic: predestined  (Read 14205 times)

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phyllis

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predestined
« on: April 05, 2008, 01:01:43 PM »

In Gen. are the tree of good and evil and the tree of life the same tree? Are they two different trees? Where, and who I am right now, is who and where I should be at this very moment? How does predestined work? What would have happen if I decide to go to Iraq, would I still have met my spouse? Lived through Katrine, Lost everything and still predestined to live in a fema match box? Was this God's plan since I was born? This is a hard pill to take.

                                       God bless you and yours
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 01:12:21 PM »

In Gen. are the tree of good and evil and the tree of life the same tree? Are they two different trees? Where, and who I am right now, is who and where I should be at this very moment? How does predestined work? What would have happen if I decide to go to Iraq, would I still have met my spouse? Lived through Katrine, Lost everything and still predestined to live in a fema match box? Was this God's plan since I was born? This is a hard pill to take.

                                       God bless you and yours

The story of Job comes to mind.
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Little Joe

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 01:13:55 PM »

In Gen. are the tree of good and evil and the tree of life the same tree? Are they two different trees? Where, and who I am right now, is who and where I should be at this very moment? How does predestined work? What would have happen if I decide to go to Iraq, would I still have met my spouse? Lived through Katrine, Lost everything and still predestined to live in a fema match box? Was this God's plan since I was born? This is a hard pill to take.

                                       God bless you and yours

Well, God Bless you Phyillis, and I am sorry for your troubles.  I can't really answer your first few questions, I guess I haven't really given that much thoiught.  But from my perspective on going through hard times, the Lord always teaches me something, or I develop some positive character trait that He works in me.  I just believe there is a purpose for everything we go through, no matter how dismal they may seem.  I hope that helps, and I'll pray for your situation.

Love in Christ,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 01:50:33 PM »


In Gen. are the tree of good and evil and the tree of life the same tree? Are they two different trees?


Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever:

Hi Phyllis,

This verse seems to put that thought to rest, we are presently in this age (and for many in the age to come as well) digesting the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as we endure, learn and are purified by the trials and tribulations we are presented with as we journey on the path God has laid out for each and every one of us as unique creations.

Once our lessons are learned and our will is in alignment with His will we will fully partake of the Tree of Life which is Christ, not in the flesh but in His Spirit, for we (and eventually all creation) will be like Him.


Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

His Peace to you,

Joe

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phazel

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 01:53:55 PM »

In Gen. are the tree of good and evil and the tree of life the same tree? Are they two different trees? Where, and who I am right now, is who and where I should be at this very moment? How does predestined work? What would have happen if I decide to go to Iraq, would I still have met my spouse? Lived through Katrine, Lost everything and still predestined to live in a fema match box? Was this God's plan since I was born? This is a hard pill to take.

                                       God bless you and yours



I'm not sure if we know how predestination works other than maybe an analogy of pretending a computer is an aware and conscious thing.  No matter what the computer would like to do,  it will end up doing what its programming was design to cause it to do.

It appears to us that we are in control,  the younger we are the harder it is to see how we are not in control at all. 
We also are under the impression that we can only attribute good things to Gods work, plan and purpose.

I do not like to water things down,  the most horrific thing to our minds that happens was intended to happen.  If that is not so then ecclesiastes 3:1 and other verses that witness it cannot be true.


Yes, it is hard to contemplate because we have been taught mans reasoning concerning fairness, justice, mercy and love and sometimes our reasoning does not add up to plain statements in scripture.

I also write this admitting that I do not always measure up to believing it myself,  I question and ponder but when I get into scripture I come back to the same answer.

God is in control, period, and man cannot change or determine his destiny that God has already designed.




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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 02:21:57 PM »

Hi Phyllis...in a way those who have had their eyes open are all "living in prefab match box) . here is an email from Ray that may address some aspect of your question

 Dear Ray,
> > I would say it is safe to say I have made knowing God my greatest
> obsession in life. I have studied many religions, but the only thing
> I know for sure is that there IS a God.
>
> Ray, I think you have done a great job writing about the scriptures.
> I help it make sense. My problem is a bit complex. I want a
> relationship with God. I want so much to be closer to God.
>
> In spite of my wanting and begging, I still have not reached a point
> in my life where I believe in X, Y or Z. I am totally confused. Even
> as compelling as your site is, I still doubt the Bible. This is no
> criticism of you. You have done a bang-up job.
>
> I beg God for a dream or to show me my purpose in this life.
> Something more than just being a guy that goes to work and supports
> his family. I have voluntarily offered to give God all I have just to
> have faith and a sense of direction. Sometimes I feel so hopeless,
> lost and empty. Sometimes I don't even want to live anymore although
> I would never commit suicide. I feel like I have been blessed with
> this wonderful life, but I am still not happy. That makes me feel
> guilt because I feel I am slapping God in the face by not being more
> appreciative. My only want in life is to know God. To have that
> peace which is faith and to truly believe.
>
> Is it selfish to want this? I love God, and I just want to know God
> and understand why I am here.
>
> Sorry for this gloomy e-mail. It is just how I feel. All I ask for
> is peace. At least peace in knowing where my faith lies and that the
> scriptures are in fact the absolute truth.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> God Bless.
>
> Chris


Dear Chris:
Many people feel like you do, Chris, and I receive hundreds of emails stating the same. Actually there are many more thousands who read my site and feel the same but are ashamed to admit it in writing. 

It is good to feel as you do for whatever period God deems necessary. Many ask me how to be a PERFECT servant of God, TODAY? 

The answer is, God will bring you along and take you through the things that He has already foreknown for you from before the foundation of the world, and nothing you can do or think or say will change God's plan or hurry it up.

Nobody wants to suffer in the flesh, not physically, financially, socially, mentally, morally, emotionally, or spiritually.  Yet it is God purpose for us to go through these things.  "...It is an experience of EVIL God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it"  (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament Version).
 
God is with you Chris, even when you think that maybe He isn't.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

God be with you,

Ray


beloved

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phyllis

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Re: predestined
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 08:19:25 PM »

Peace to you a"ll
            Question: Does everbody here believe in predestine? That from the time you are born to the time you die has been determined?
                             
                                          thank y'all
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Kat

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Re: predestined
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 10:28:17 PM »


Hi Phyllis,

Here is a email that Ray discusses this, maybe it will help  :)

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong! 

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

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phazel

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 11:23:34 PM »

Peace to you a"ll
            Question: Does everbody here believe in predestine? That from the time you are born to the time you die has been determined?
                             
                                          thank y'all


I certainly do whether I can completely comprehend or understand it. 
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 08:25:21 AM »

Hi Phyllis

I suppose i'll throw in my 2 cents.

Beyond all the discussion here concerning individual predestination, there is a major plan, I'll admit I dont know what or where this plan will take us all, But for sure God does.

This is not to say God is not concerned with the smallest of things in our lives, But that God has a overall plan for mankind that must move about without one item out of place.

A thousand piece puzzle has to have all the pieces to come together, and make a picture, if even one piece is missing or if one piece is the wrong shape the final picture would be distorted.

There is a grand purpose/plan, and NONE of this grand purpose could come about without all these things that must happen in perfect order.

All i can say is it's absolutley amazing!

Peace

Chris R



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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 12:19:09 PM »

Peace to you a"ll
            Question: Does everbody here believe in predestine? That from the time you are born to the time you die has been determined?
                             
                                          thank y'all

Job 7:1  Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of a hireling?

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

Job 14:14  If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Psa 39:4  LORD, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; that I may know how frail I am.

Psa 39:5  Behold, thou hast made my days as a handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Also when we read the prophecies of Isaiah Chapter 53 we can see the life of Christ predestined, He is our example in all things.

1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Of course I am not saying that we have exactly duplicated experiences but we all experience disappointments, tragedies, heartache and varying trials and tribulations that form us into the creation God has preordained from the beginning. His work in us is all to His glory and it is also in His plan to share His glory with us!

Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

1Pe 5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

The apostles wondered why certain things happen to certain people and asked Jesus why was this man blind from birth?

Joh 9:1  And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
 
Joh 9:2  And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
 
Joh 9:3  Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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hillsbororiver

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Re: predestined
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 05:08:11 PM »

Hi Rodger,

This is one of those things of God that is difficult to wrap our minds around, kind of like "free will" or rather the lack of free will. As Ray teaches the parables all boil down to "many called, few chosen" it is God who does the calling and the choosing, He did this not as things were happening here on earth but before the foundation of the world was laid. No one "earns" the right or opportunity to be of the called and especially of the chosen, no one can boast of anything they did to be approved of God.

It is the Potter who before He even scoops the clay from the ground knows what He will be fashioning, He knows what must be done as He is creating His pot, vessel, jar, etc.

If the clay could feel and think I am quite sure it would think a very strange thing was being done to it as it experienced the kneading, treading, the Potter's wheel, and especially the kiln. Even though the clay does not know or even perceive all the hows and whys, the reasons it must be done like this the Potter does and it is His will that will be the end result.


Isa 29:16  Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Isa 41:25  I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon mortar and as the potter treadeth clay.

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
 
Jer 18:6  O house of Israel, cannot, I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
 
Rom 9:21   Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

I believe that many called, few chosen, free will fallacy, and predestination are all the same thing, God is presently creating/fashioning us according to His design, plan and purpose. The following verses do not speak of the horrid Calvinist manmade doctrine of predestination but rather the ultimately glorious plan of salvation for all through Christ and His elect, who were chosen by Him before the Universe was created.

It is a mind boggling thing to contemplate and meditate on;


Act 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
 
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 
2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace, be multiplied.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

 
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 05:14:14 PM »

I was listening to the latest bible study going to work this morning. Ray quoted this verse from Isaiah 46:

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


I would think that are lives are predetermined even with the our daily choices. If the end has been declared, how is it not predetermined? To answer your question Falconn003, I believe every life is predetermined including the causes and the effects for that life. What one's faith will or will not overcome has been predetermined as well. If the end has been declared, the actions to bring us to that end have been set in place and no one can change that. I do not know it all neither do I claim to, but the scriptures seem to say that it is God "willing" us and predetermining & choosing us as well.


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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 05:16:05 PM »

Hi Rodger

Just to add. You ask,

.....Would a predistined life be..... A life with many predistined choices affected by causes and effects to bring forth  FAITH in us to OVERCOME or not overcome?

We are not the potter but the clay so yes!

God knows how to tolerate with much much patience, the vessels of His wrath that are fitted for destruction. Rom 9 : 22 What if God, although fully intending to show the awfulness of His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels of His anger which are ripe for destruction?

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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phyllis

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 05:17:07 PM »

 Joe thanks for those two cents. It was worth a million dollars. I think I understand what you are talking about. Could it be that all of our choices we make doing our life time takes us to our predetermined place in life? Where God has chosen us to be? A left turn here and a right turn there and bam, here we are right where we ought to be.

                                                   Thanks
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2008, 05:23:06 PM »

Here is a portion from LOF Part 4 that may not exactly cover this topic but it is in the ballpark;

Theologians view the Scriptures in the same way little children view a marionette show. Like little children, they suppose that the marionettes are "truth." They suppose that what they see is the absolute truth. These marionettes really do walk and talk "by themselves;" they really do sing and dance "by themselves." Certainly to the immature and the uninitiated, they have that power within themselves. But, they haven't a clue as to what is happening behind the curtain. They haven't a clue as to how these little marionettes do what they do! They haven't even considered that there may be a higher power "operating" these marionettes.

In this, theologians are like little children. Theologians don't want to know what's going on behind the curtain. They are perfectly happy in their ignorance. They are entertained by their own false delusions, and ever so proud of their independence from God!

And why is it that little children are deceived by marionettes' lifelike behavior? Because the strings are very thin and the operators are hid behind the curtain. They can see them perform with their own eyes. They can hear them singing with their own ears. Surely that is proof enough for a little child. And what more proof do you have that humans "perform" independent from the One Who is operating all (Eph. 11:1)? None. God doesn't need thinner strings to fool us-God operates by Spirit. God doesn't need to hide behind a curtain-God is invisible (II Cor. 4:4).

Just as surely as children are fooled into believing that marionettes perform by their own powers, theologians and the wise of this world are fooled into thinking that man too can operate, in and by himself, independently of his own Creator.

Theologians teach this falsehood because they live by sight not by faith. Like little children, they don't perceive any strings nor the Operator, which are both invisible. So with them, as with children, they assume there are no operating forces in their lives-they are "free." Hence they refuse to believe even the Scriptural declarations that God is Operating all according to the counsel of His own will (Eph. 11:1), and that apart from Christ they can do nothing (Jn 15:5).

We are witnessing a worldwide Christian movement where the blind are leading the blind. They are like a Hollywood horror film where renegade marionettes band together and try to cut off the controlling strings, never to be operated against their wills by their Creator again. They want to have powers beyond what their Maker built into them. Everyone wants to be a Potter, when in reality, he is just a pot. "And now, Lord, Thou art our Father. And we are the clay. Thou art our Former, and the doing of Thy hand are we all" (Isa. 64:8).

It is an interesting point that of all mankind, Adam only, was formed directly from clay. But the original Hebrew of Isa. 64:8 says that "we all" are "the doing of Thy hand." God didn't form mankind and then wind him up like a clock to proceed through life all on his own power. No. We "are," (present tense) "the doing of Thy hand." I know it's humbling, but then again, the Truth of God has that effect on those who believe His Word. If you think I'm crazy, then accuse God's Word of being crazy, because that's where I'm reading this from. Someone might retort: "Mr. Smith, are you saying that I can't even move my little finger unless it is God's intention that I do so?"

That is exactly what I am saying. Because that is exactly what God is saying: " ... not far from each one of us is He [God] inherent, for in Him we are living and moving [our little finger] and are [exist] ... " (Acts 17:28). I'm sorry that there are people who are not happy with this arrangement; I am. It gives me confidence and hope to know that God is controlling everything to a perfect conclusion. Man only thinks he has independent free will from God, and look where this world is headed. Imagine the state of affairs if man actually did have free will.

Free will or independence from our Creator God is just an illusion. It is, nonetheless, a marvelous illusion. The genius of God is overwhelming. It is this very illusion that enables mankind to actually believe he is the master of his own fate. And God helps bolster this illusion by actually giving men a certain amount of success in their quest for power, fame, and fortune. But just like the King of Assyria, Pharaoh, and others, all, one day, will realize and appreciate the fact that it was God " ... operating all ... "

These inspired words of the Apostle Paul are so clear that one has to be downright stubborn as to the truth, not to believe them:

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:18-21)

God said He raised Pharaoh up for the express purpose of displaying His power in him (Ver. 17). It is an historical and Scriptural fact that God did this to Pharaoh. Ver. 18 then states that, consequently then, God is either "merciful," or "hardens" anyone He wants to. And whosoever they are have nothing to say about God's doing so.

Well, of course, if one is hostile against God and His word, his retort to this statement of Paul's would then be:

"WHY, THEN, IS HE STILL BLAMING?" (Ver. 19)

How can God hold people accountable for their sins when it was "He" [God] who brought about their condition? At least Paul's detractors had the sense to realize that if what Paul was saying is true, then they are solely at God's mercy (not their own ability) to ever change their condition, because their next statement is:

" ... for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?" (Ver. 19).

God intends for men to go against His will (that's how men become lost so that God can then save them), but no one, absolutely NO ONE, has ever gone against God's INTENTION! Hey, don't get angry with me - I'm just quoting the Scriptures.

Notice that Paul does not even deign to answer such carnal questioning of God's wisdom. His response is:

"O MAN! WHO ARE YOU, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded WILL NOT protest to the molder, 'Why do YOU MAKE me thus'?" (Ver. 20).

God is GOD, and He does what He pleases. God "pleases" to have many Sons. God "pleases" to save ALL humanity and ALL in the heavens (Eph. 11:10-11, Col. 1:20, I Cor. 15:22, 28). Who are we to question God's process? Since God is both loving and wise and also possesses all power, why should anyone question God's ability to accomplish His own Will?

Theologians are audacious. They not only question God's ability to accomplish His own will; they flat out teach the whole world that the Great Creator God will NEVER accomplish His Own Will. Paul told Timothy:

" ... our Saviour, God, Who WILLS that ALL mankind be saved ... " (I Tim. 2:4).

Theologians the world over say: "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!" They try to make God out a liar. They are the liars, deceivers, hypocrites, and blasphemers!

One thing is certain; God's greatest enemies are not qualified to be great teachers of His Word.

Maybe it's time we pulled back the curtain of tradition, ignorance, and immaturity and acknowledge Who is really "pulling the strings" of the universe.

But wait. I think I hear the Theological Peanut Gallery objecting already:

"Are you saying that people are mere 'marionettes'?" Or "robots?"

No. But what if there are certain similarities between robots and humans? Is that a "sin" on God's part? Certainly the human brain is many times more complex than all the computers in the world, but nonetheless, the human is still not independent of God.

I understand these things, but I don't go around all day feeling like a mechanical robot. We are highly complex creatures, with powerful emotions, brain power, and physical dexterity. For all these I thank God.

Every day we go places, do things, feel things, and make hundreds of choices. And God is not going to force you, against your will, to eat cherry pie for desert at lunch when what you are really craving is apple pie. But, nonetheless, it is God's operation of circumstances that will cause you to desire and choose the apple pie. Lest you think God is not concerned with tiny details, remember the story of the war that was lost because one nail came out of a horse's hoof.

Don't think that this is Eastern Fatalism. This is not "blind chance" or "whatever will be, will be." This is perfect foreknowledge and design of the Great Creator God Who is "operating all according to the counsel of His will." It doesn't just happen. There is perfect design behind all that God does. This is not fatalism. God causes it all.

Peace,

Joe


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2008, 05:25:01 PM »

Joe thanks for those two cents. It was worth a million dollars. I think I understand what you are talking about. Could it be that all of our choices we make doing our life time takes us to our predetermined place in life? Where God has chosen us to be? A left turn here and a right turn there and bam, here we are right where we ought to be.

                                                   Thanks

Yep!

You nailed it Sister!  ;)

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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phazel

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Re: predestined
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2008, 05:30:16 PM »

Hi there Joe
PS would like too know if Ray has a predestine article in the works ((no pun intended))  ;)  ;D [/color]


Rays articles on the myth of free will covers predestination pretty heavily.   If we are predestined, it seems that we could not have a determinate will at the same time.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: predestined
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2008, 05:44:25 PM »

True phazel, here is the link to a very relevant portion;

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html


EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:

"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.

If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."

The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."

Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:

"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).

And a third witness:

"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).

Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:

"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"

Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?

Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.

Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:

[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

AND:

[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).

Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.

A lot of very good stuff here!

Peace,

Joe

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: predestined
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2008, 07:02:45 PM »

Again there is that word "overcometh" , Once it's role in predistine life is understood, it will show God's plan very more clearly.

Right Rodger! And once it is understood one begins to see that God is a God of timing! His timing is perfect! 8)

Peace be to you brother

Arcturus :)
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