Sons and Daughters of God

[mharrell08]

Hello All:

I have a question that has been on my mind for couple of days. I know that Jesus and his elect will bring those in the White Throne Judgment to reconcilation. But afterwards (which I know Ray or anyone really has not covered in any great scriptural detail) when all are sons and daughters of God, what then? What does one in the image of God do? Create life? The reason why I ask "to create life" is because scripture says it is through Jesus that God created all things (Ephesians 3:9). Would he do the same with his newly adopted sons and daughters as well?



Marques

[mharrell08]

One other note: I have read through all of Ray's papers especially the Lake of Fire series. I do not recall seeing an answer to the question I just posed so I decided to ask you all. I thought I should mention that but if there is an article or email that I did not see, feel free to point out. Thanks



Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

All I have seen Ray say about this is that the Scriptures are silent about what happens after God is all in all. Also that the Kingdom will increase but how that is to take place, the Scriptures do not say.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[musicman]

We'll be living in mansions on puffy white clouds peering out on gold laced streets and eternally indulging in every fleshly desire that our feeble minds have lusted over throughout our lifetimes.

Then again,


Maybe we'll be serving God in some other way.

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

I believe this physical creation is all for a very good purpose, but we have not even begun to imagine the full purpose for it all.  The vastness of the universe is not practical for the use of these physical being that we are now.  But I think as spirit being we will begin to tap the intended purpose for all those galaxies.  Who knows what marvelous adventures God has in store for His children, after all there will be no limits to what He is capable of doing through us.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written:
       "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
       Nor have entered into the heart of man
       The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mharrell08]

Thank you Kat

[Sorin]

We'll be living in mansions on puffy white clouds peering out on gold laced streets and eternally indulging in every fleshly desire that our feeble minds have lusted over throughout our lifetimes.

Then again,


Maybe we'll be serving God in some other way.

So you believe that we'll still be lacking things then? And our only purpose will be to 'serve God' with nothing in it for us?
Doesn't sound all that great from that point of view.



King James Bible
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Cor 2:9

But from this verse, it definitely sounds like maybe there is something in it for us, after all.

[Stevernator]

Hi Sorin,

I don't think musicman said anything about us lacking anything. Of course God will provide for us in unimaginable ways but isn't it possible for us to gain pleasure from serving God. There are many scriptures that speak of gaining pleasure from obeying the Lord.
Psa 37:4
4 Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Neh 8:10
10 Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."

Joh 15:10-11
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

etc etc.

Peace be with you,
Steve

[joyful1]

Hello all!  
I won't pretend to know the things that you are looking for....but I do believe that the Spirit of God IS revealing them to us as He desires to....

1 Corinthians 2:8-12

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

I feel so loved by God when I think on this!


Joyce

[Deborah-Leigh]

Good insights Joyful1

Some are of the opinion that what they have is from their own powers and is produced from free will.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Dante]

Just some maybes:

Maybe we will rule and reign with him.

Maybe we will help create with him.

Maybe we will explore the universe and learn much, if not all it's secrets (Which will actually be learning about God). This would seem to make sense since that is what we are doing here.

Maybe we will communicate with each other directly without the need of speech, since our love and dreams will be instantly WITH each other. You may feel the emotion from others and the song in their hearts without even hearing a word. I had a dream one time where God told me that light (Like a rainbow of unimaginable color) and music (A humans vocals, of wailing (IN a good way) of a sorts)were really an important part of Heaven.

Maybe we will FEEL what God feels Directly. An example would be the love for creating.

Maybe we will listen to stories, of the lives of people we admired in life and those who we didn't admire so much. (Humans) Wouldn't that be interesting to hear from the greatest minds of men, and how they don't even compare to God,...etc..

Maybe we will be like the Angels are now, we will help another civilization on another planet billions of miles away. And then we can say,..."Yikes,..yeah I remember being in there shoes".

[Truth101]

Hi all,

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

After reading through these posts this scripture comes to me. Even now, somehow God reveals Himself through all He has created. Jesus used many examples of the things created to reveal spiritual things which I find are complete evidence of Him.

It is through seeing creation that not believing in God is warranted as inexcusable. Our human needs to create things (albeit with things God has already created) seems to me to be part of a training for a future employment if you will. Mans constant desire to create and mold seems to be just another evidence of not only Gods existance but His very spirit in us (all of us).

Maybe God will create through us. I know this is speculation but thinking on these things brings joy just to imagine all the possibilities.

God bless, Dave

[Sorin]

Good insights Joyful1

Some are of the opinion that what they have is from their own powers and is produced from free will.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Hi Arcturus,

So what you're saying is; both the things we have, and the things we don't are either given to us, or they're not. And there's nothing
we can do of our own free will to produce it?

Predestination comes to mind-and basically one shouldn't look down upon a homeless person and call him a loser because that is his lot in life. Likewise, the rich person thumbing his nose at him, was predestined to be a rich, snobby- well, you get my point.
So what you're saying is, that homeless person can not do anything to get himself out of that situation like finding a job, and working his way up to at least, poor, but no longer homeless, unless God predestined that for him. So how is it the homeless person's fault, he can't help who he is, nor can he 'of his own free will produce anything'.

Can't really call someone lazy if they lack free will... and are bound to their destiny in life. And can of their own free-will produce nothing, since they lack it.

Also, Ray said that a person can not commit suicide unless that is what God pre-determined that they would do, and when they would do it, not sooner, nor later. So how can we look down on people who have committed suicide, or have attempted, and failed.
Weren't they just doing what they were predestined to do? They were dealt a terrible hand, and couldn't deal with it anymore, or saw
that there's no reason for them to live. And don't try saying, that, ' there is a reason, God, loves them ' and all that, because if they're pre-destined to do it, they will do it. And there's nothing you can do to stop it.

They had their time to be born, got dealt that bad hand, and now it's time for them to go.
I hate how Christians condemn suicide victims to an eternity in hell.
I mean, my God!... haven't they suffered enough on earth? Now these ******** want them to suffer more; insanely more, unspeakable
pain and misery for all eternity.

Just some thoughts that were on my mind this morning,
Sorin

[joyful1]

Good insights Joyful1

Some are of the opinion that what they have is from their own powers and is produced from free will.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Exactly, Acturus!
I was thinking about this very subject late last night and early this morning...
"working with predestination"....I'll be posting a thread by that name in a few mins. I don't want to disrupt Marques' original question.
Joyce

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Indeed what you say is true, we can not look down on anyone at all because of their circumstances in this life.

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am...

Also, Ray said that a person can not commit suicide unless that is what God pre-determined that they would do, and when they would do it, not sooner, nor later.

Here is an excerpt from the Nashville conference transcript that you referred to.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384 -----

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances.  He doesn't make anyone kill themselves against their will, no.  But He puts them into situations where they can't tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, it's like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God.  That's the way you should live your life.   He could not help but pray.  
What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it's talking about.  
Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it's not.

Phi 2:12  "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Doesn't that contradict this whole thing, we're saved by grace and not of works?  And now we're to work out our own salvation?  What is that?  How do you explain that?  " Of Myself I can do nothing..." (John 5:30),  and he said YOU can do nothing (John 15:5), He said to the apostles.  Then Paul says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  Well it does sound like a contradiction.  Read the next verse, He tells us why.  'For,' now that word always means 'because,' it's another word for because.

Phi 2:13  "For(because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Some of you probably still don't get the answer, but it is there.  Work out your own salvation, is not the jest of that saying, He is not saying, work out your own salvation(.)  No, he's saying "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that's where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on work out your own salvation.  You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why?  Because it all depends on God.  If God doesn't do it, it won't happen, IT WON'T HAPPEN.  So we live in fear and trepidation.
v
v
You think, I shouldn't have done this or that.  That's right you shouldn't think that way.  You should think, that I shouldn't have done that, because then your learning.  And when you learn, you will then put that into practice.  Because God doesn't have you learn things so you can't put them into practice.  He has you learn things so you CAN put them into practice.  But the only way you will learn them, is if you see how stupid it was, and you say if I had it to do over, I wouldn't have done that.  So you had to do them, because that lead to a lot of trouble and pain and sorrow.  But did you learn your lesson?  Well yea.  Then don't do it again, Ok, now their back on track.  
But the whole human race does not comprehend, they do not have free-will.  They have a will based on everything, that everything makes them do.  That's there free-will.
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Arcturus,

Hi Sorin!

So what you're saying is;

Not what I am saying but what is taught here in BT and what God is saying....

both the things we have, and the things we don't are either given to us, or they're not. And there's nothing
we can do of our own free will to produce it?

You see that is just it brother. We DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. Caps only for emphasis not to shout or be high handed but to emphasise that until we are introduced to understanding that at first our weakness is beyond our comprehension, we carry on believing that we have some power. We have no power but that which is given to us. Remember what Jesus said to Pontias Pilate? Of course you do!

John 19 : 11 You would not have any power or authority whatsoever against Me if it were not given you from above.

Predestination comes to mind-and basically one shouldn't look down upon a homeless person and call him a loser because that is his lot in life.

Quite right especially in the light of these words.

Luke 9 : 58 Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has no where to lay His Head.

Likewise, the rich person thumbing his nose at him, was predestined to be a rich, snobby- well, you get my point.

Yes.

So what you're saying is, that homeless person can not do anything to get himself out of that situation like finding a job, and working his way up to at least, poor, but no longer homeless, unless God predestined that for him.

You can take this further. Some are born in a circumstance of for example, a three month life span due to poverty, malnutrition, absence of medical services etc. Some are born into ( worldly ) Royalty.

So how is it the homeless person's fault,

....fault...fault is the twin of blame. Where there is fault there has to be blame. Blame reminds me of the beam in the eye.

he can't help who he is, nor can he 'of his own free will produce anything'.

.... Free will...... No one has free will but this does not exonerate or excuse accountability and consequences. I believe we learn through our CONSEQUENCES. The heart is wicked and the consequences of such wickedness train, chastise, teach and instruct through the edifying ways in which effects follow causes.

Can't really call someone lazy if they lack free will...

Oops. How did you get to that conclusion?  Just because Judas was not made to obey, follow and be faithful to Christ does not put the blame, fault, error and accountability with God. Why should it? If it did then Judas is a puppet of God's which we know non of us are! WE all are created for a purpose and destiny and we are each individually assigned our circumstances and out comes of those circumstances because remember...God is the potter and we are the clay. Right?

and are bound to their destiny in life.

Bound...BOUND...to DESTINY? What, where, no...NO. We are bound to VANITY not destiny. We are subject to vanity in a way that only God can deliver us. That is bound as I see it.

Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.


And can of their own free-will produce nothing, since they lack it.

I feel some thin ice here because to approach any conclusion that no fruit in a life is due to no free will is actually to excuse those who have no fruit in their lives from ever having to run the race set before them. Just how I see this. To explain : If no race is set before them like the person born in a country where their life expires in three months after birth due to CIRCUMSTANCES, then yes okay.  That life has no race set before them as we know and understand the race which is to take up the cross and follow HIM.

Also, Ray said that a person can not commit suicide unless that is what God pre-determined that they would do, and when they would do it, not sooner, nor later.

Right.

So how can we look down on people who have committed suicide, or have attempted, and failed.

How can we look down on ANYONE? Easy. Take a little holier than thou pride, mix it with the tonic of deception, add a dash of illusion that humans have power and free will, mix it thoroughly with the false teachings of Hell, Tithing, Free Will Mythology and shake it up and then lay the potion on to the minds alter of idolatry and rebellion. One bow, just one,  should make a full fledged Pharisee of religion who can look down on anyone and everyone except himself by elevating him/her to unimagined heights of self glory.

Weren't they just doing what they were predestined to do?

Yes but they are to be held accountable and therein is their victory Sorin and their pardon and their chastisement and their restoration without which they are nothing and God did not make us to be nothing!

They were dealt a terrible hand, and couldn't deal with it anymore, or saw
that there's no reason for them to live.

Yes. True and they not God has to be held ACCOUNTABLE. Can you see that ACCOUNTABILITY is such a precious gift! God is responsible for this gift and we are so blessed for it because via accountability we are restored from all the sins, errors, failures, illusions, mistakes and gross carnality because there are consequences. I believe God is a God of consequences. HE is the CAUSE and creator of consequences.

Take an example. You get caught speeding. You should get a fine. You don't because God causes the Cop to take pity and let you off or God causes the Cop to book you. Who is in charge?

And don't try saying, that, ' there is a reason, God, loves them '

Okay!      There is however a reason, a very BIG reason why WE should love GOD right? Can't see much reason for God to love us but He does!  

and all that, because if they're pre-destined to do it, they will do it. And there's nothing you can do to stop it.

So true. BUT, if you are predestined to STOP it, there is nothing you can do to but interfere and be caused to stop it. If not. NOT. Agreed.

They had their time to be born, got dealt that bad hand, and now it's time for them to go.

Hey! They are not dead yet!  Are you pronouncing their time? No one knows the time of death except for Christ.

Rev 1 : 18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of death and Hades.

I hate how Christians condemn suicide victims to an eternity in hell.

Try not to hate. They do only what they are able to do at this time and they are going to be held accountable just like and as those who self destruct.

I mean, my God!... haven't they suffered enough on earth?

Why do I think that perhaps you know of someone who has committed suicide?    It is sad. and if so, they who have committed suicide will be held accountable. That is not unreasonable not because they have suffered on earth but because they have killed and God says thy shalt not kill. When they see the pain that they cause to others through suicide, then I think they will receive the deeper understanding for the love they thought they did not have and believed rather in the lie that self destruction was the way to go. I do not believe anyone here in BT thinks that God will inflict pain on anyone for the sake of it but it will be done to correct and hone each one of us into His image and ways and remove our limited thinking and motives from us which are self destructive.

Now these ******** want them to suffer more; insanely more, unspeakable
pain and misery for all eternity.

Yep. Sounds like the Hell believers who will also need to be corrected and will be. Is that not wonderful. They will be because God has a plan for each and every one of us!

Just some thoughts that were on my mind this morning,
Sorin

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings Sorin. They are important and have merit.

Peace be to you brother

Arcturus

[phazel]

Can't really call someone lazy if they lack free will...

Oops. How did you get to that conclusion?   Just because Judas was not made to obey, follow and be faithful to Christ does not put the blame, fault, error and accountability with God. Why should it? If it did then Judas is a puppet of God's which we know non of us are! WE all are created for a purpose and destiny and we are each individually assigned our circumstances and out comes of those circumstances because remember...God is the potter and we are the clay. Right?

I think the greater picture here is the tone of negativity we as humans place on fault.   Someone may be indeed lazy, but if we are to believe that God is responsible for the circumstances that brought about that laziness and that a lazy person could have never been anything but the lazy person we might see before us then what judgment are we to see?

What we have to remind ourselves of is that if indeed we have no free will and everything is as God intended then we must see the lazy person as having a purpose even if our human reasoning would look down upon the lazy person.

This however does not keep the circumstances from happening that might cause someone to put the lazy person down, was that not intended also, or someone may try to encourage the lazy person. 

As me and my son talk about this free will thing, we often find ourselves in an agreement that no matter how it appears,  we get the feeling that we should still tell the lazy person to get a job,  work harder,  find something to do, etc.     

[joyful1]

Phazel--we've been discussing this very thing at our house lately....
and here is my personal conclusion (*at this point):

1) judge not before the TIME
2) judge only WITHIN, God judges those WITHOUT the court

The Elect will judge the rest of the world and angels later...
HOWever! In THIS time, we are given certain boundaries to our judging, chiefly the two mentioned above...

So it makes SENSE that THOSE who "seriously cannot help being lazy" are in the group that we DON"T judge....for now.

This actually PROMOTES peace, in my opinion.  Because when a CHILD who is a natural born "rebel" (and I've raised BOTH kinds!)......steals something from your dresser drawer....and you confront that rebel with the evidence....they turn into a HOT HEADED fireball!  Confront the same aged child who is naturally submissive to the parent and they get teary-eyed and repentive.

You could look at the rebels as "without the court,"
flesh, not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be!

You could look at the child who is willing to "accept instruction" as the one God predestined to rule. Now this child may have been "the prodigal son" at one point....but still when they submit to the father's authority, then that all changes.

Any comments?

[indianabob]

Hi Sorin,

I don't think musicman said anything about us lacking anything. Of course God will provide for us in unimaginable ways but isn't it possible for us to gain pleasure from serving God. There are many scriptures that speak of gaining pleasure from obeying the Lord.
Psa 37:4
4 Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Neh 8:10
10 Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."

Joh 15:10-11
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

etc etc.

Peace be with you,
Steve

Thank you Steve,

I like the way you put the point.  We will get pleasure from serving others and especially serving first our Lord Jesus for perhaps 1000 years and after that when the New Jerusalem is here on the earth, serving the Creator Father God Himself. 

Please keep in mind that God is Creator.  When He placed Adam and Eve in the beautiful Garden paradise that He had created God offered to share the creation process with them from that point forward.  Giving them dominion over the whole earth and its contents.  Announcing that they would produce living beings with the potential to live forever. Later when the next age is complete, we will participate in another age of creativity and of building and sharing ideas and plans for the future  AND perhaps traveling out into the Universe, whatever the composition of it may be at that future time.

I don't believe that we will then have Free Will any more than we do now.  God reserves the authority to maintain His sovereignty for all time.  We may have multiple choices and opportunities to explore with our mind, but God will always be the only source of all things.

One of the advantages of "child like" belief and trust, is the full confidence that our lives will be thrilling beyond measure and always stimulating and enjoyable.

Warm  regards to one and all,  Indianabob