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[hillsbororiver]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=558256&in_page_id=1774&in_page_id=1774&expand=true#StartComments

[Patrick]

A quote from the comments; "Did she start leaving the toilet seat up as well?"

For sure, bizarre!

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Patrick,

I got a laugh from that one too.

On a more serious note I just can't imagine what it must feel like to think (whether real or imagined) that something could have an influence on my thought process or my physical cravings from within like that. It must be difficult enough to only deal with the whole heart/lung transplant procedure much less this internal haunting so to speak.

Peace,

Joe 

[Deborah-Leigh]

The life is in the blood. What is in the blood? DNA.

It would be interesting to receive Beloved's view on this.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Beloved]

I do not think there is anything "real" to this.

His tissue would have no 'memory', these two organs have no nerve regeneration yet and may never, they do not need it like other organs (hand feet etc. They are connected to her and function, The heart beats automatically, the lungs inflate because of her diaphragm and chest wall muscles, they create a negative pressure.

These organs have vascular connection with her blood. His blood was thoroughly washed out with saline washings before the connection. Her blood (perhaps some donated blood from other donors) is flowing through these organs.

What I "think" is that spirit powers could be at play, just like people who are possessed and seances may know something about the dead person....the boy is himself is dead, the spirits are passing his information to her...it is not a holy spirit...it is a deception to make her and the family believe in an afterlife. They are playing with carnal desires...beer and chicken nugget.
So they speak in dreams...that is where the spirit can speak. Who knows maybe the boy was possesed himself and this spirit caused the accident in the first place.

Anyway, I am not impressed. The woman is on a lot of immuno-suppressive drugs, making her receptive physically and perhaps emotionally.

I think it was a very traumative illness too that possibly challenged her core beliefs whatever they were. The parents of the boy will look for anything similar and ignore anything different. Both feed each other.

I think that this woman may be in jeopardy of being spiritually possessed

Then again how do you disprove this.  Coincidense or not?

beloved

[KristaD]

All very true beloved. I think as Christians we must be aware of the "other side" of spirtual forces and be able to recognize them, and this certainly appears to be that. They play on our human emotions, our carnal minds and they deceive many without people acknowledging their existence. It's very refreshing to be a part of a place where people see things for what they are.

[hebrewroots98]

I veiwed this and I had mixed emotions as well; infact it brought me to tears.  Yes, it is an emotional trauma for her to have to deal with all of these life threatening situations, and she could very well be telling the truth and she may very well be just pulling our leg in order to sell her book.  It is Very strange indeed.  At first, I too saw this as the 'life is in the blood' and surely the heart muscle itself had the DNA of the boy in it; but, who knows? 

I really never have liked the idea of having another person's blood mixed in with mine; I have heard other stories similar to this and yet, I do not know if this is real or if the person truly is simply posessed? 

As far as dreams, beloved; I have been given many dreams FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, and not from an unclean spirit; and these dreams have helped me tremendously to understand certain things that God is trying to show me that I am just not getting while in my awake consciousness, infact these dreams do comfort me...I feel that I was given a gift from God after always desiring to be able to interpret dreams.  I don't know much about how satan talks to us in our dreams, I have never experienced much if  ;)any that I can remember?

anyway, what say the rest of you?   

[Beloved]

I think that God has spoke to many people in dreams, so spiritual messangers can use this route. here are two verses that suggest that perhaps evil spirits can do the same. Of course God sends these like he did to Saul and Judas. 

I did not mean to imply that she is or was possessed but that she is at least being used by them.

Jer 27:9  Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:

Zec 10:2  For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.

Red blood cells (RBC) and platelets as a rule have no DNA in them that is why they can bend and fit through capillaries, the blood does have White blood cells and these do have a small amount of DNA. Blood usually only survives for 120 days so in three months it is totally replaced by the body. Fetal RBC do have a percentage that do have DNA. Blood has life because it carries oxygen not because of the DNA.

Yes this woman's sickness was very sad but it is also a shame that so many people are always looking for signs and marvels.

beloved

[hebrewroots98]

Accurate scriptures beloved, thank you.  I understand where you are coming from. and it sounds very convincing.  I meant No offense and hopefully you took no offense.  I am more of the opinion that this is not for real, but I just never want to discount things that I have seen happen with others before and I don't want to be guilty for writing off the unseen things just b/c I don't comprehend them....(I am writing this on my list of things to ask the Lord about when I see HIM....

[Deborah-Leigh]

Beloved

Thank you for your marvelous edification especially why the life is in the blood. Oxygen which relates to BREATH of God! Spirit!

As for the body....well from dust to dust and we all know who eats the dust for breakfast lunch and dinner seeking whom he my devour! What I find interesting is that The DNA has information pertaining to many carnal properties of the human made from dust makeup. If you care to expound or correct, that would be great. It is wonderful to have a Doctor in the House not for nothing no doubt!

Susan, I did not see your posting as offensive at all. We are all learing and living....

Peace be to you

Arc.

[chav]

Hi
this seems to be an increasingly reported phenomenom , and I have seen some documentaries about it here. What seems particularly interesting ,is that it seems to only occur mainly with those who have had heart transplants, from what I have seen those receiving renal and liver transplants do not appear to have the same experience, although I might be wrong about that.
I have also read that there is some evidence to suggest ,that the heart appears to have some emotional effect on the brain also, and is not merely a pump .Perhaps that might be an explanation as to why this occurs.

Dave

[eggi]

"Was he a beer drinker?" I asked. His sisters nodded.

When I told them how I had wanted a beer soon after the operation, there were smiles all around. It was so amazing just to be there that I had to remind myself that I had come with some specific questions. I asked if Tim had ever had colds and whether he recovered quickly.

They told me that he was hardly ever ill, and I wondered if this explained my new-found resilience? I also asked if he liked green peppers. I'd never liked them before the operation - but afterwards I loved them and included them in virtually every meal. His sister told me that, yes, Tim had loved green peppers - "but what he really loved were chicken nuggets".

This explained my trips to Kentucky Fried Chicken. I was dumbfounded.

And just what is that supposed to prove? How many people "like beer", how many people "like green peppers", how many people "like chicken nuggets"?

I'll tell you now about a so-called "clearseer", a woman in Norway who says that she can communicate with animals, especially with cats. According to this woman, the cats tell her things like: "I've lived a long life with my owner, he took care of me. There is another cat in the neighbourhood who is sick. I want my owner to help him. I like when my owner gives me a massage. I like to eat fresh fish." And so on...

These things are so general, it's so easy to come up with those things! I can't believe that some people are so stupid as to believe that this woman can actually "communicate" with animals. Of course, as it is custom with all liars, she drew a deep breath and closed her eyes when she started "communicating" with the cat. The cat seemed like he wanted to get out of there... All on national television. The same lady has now become so "receptive" (in her own words), that she can communicate with the dead. So she has started a "clinic" where she communicates with your dead relatives, if you pay her about 100$ per hour. She's a liar!

I never believed in these "amazing stories". Most of them can be explained quite easily without any investigation.
Or perhaps aliens downloaded the mind of that boy after he was abducted and taken to a galaxy far far away?
By the way, do you know that earth is ruled by a race of reptilians from the Draco system? The queen lizard of England is their leader. Just look at her eyes!

God bless you,
Eirik

[eggi]

Hi
this seems to be an increasingly reported phenomenom , and I have seen some documentaries about it here. What seems particularly interesting ,is that it seems to only occur mainly with those who have had heart transplants, from what I have seen those receiving renal and liver transplants do not appear to have the same experience, although I might be wrong about that.
I have also read that there is some evidence to suggest ,that the heart appears to have some emotional effect on the brain also, and is not merely a pump. Perhaps that might be an explanation as to why this occurs.

Dave

Dave, there might come a day when humans will have a pig's heart transplanted into their body. I wonder what thoughts and feelings they would have then? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1740316.stm

If the spirit returns to God who gave it, does this mean that in order to resurrect us with the same personality, then God would also have to bring the heart back to Him? Seeing that flesh and blood (including the heart) CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God, do you think that God will have to rethink His ideas? Perhaps part of our spirit resides in the blood, and part of it resides in the heart? I think not. In a recent email to Ray, Cobby writes:

So the beast is the physical heart of every mankind which pumps blood. In the blood lives the spirit of man.

Ray replied:

Dear Cobby: Two thousand pages you say?  And my revelations are no different from yours, you say?  Interesting. Let me know when your book is out.

I recall Ray saying that our problem is not our flesh, it's our carnal mind. The body in itself does not do anything bad.

PS. I was a blood donor for a couple of years, and I've never heard of anyone who began to play the piano in the same way as I, or desperately crave any of my favourite foods after they were given this blood.

[Beloved]

Well this is turning into an interesting post, I kind of ignored it when I saw it. All of these stories seem fit for "silly women with itching ears".

DNA is very complex, it is not in a double helix form most of the time in ones life, it is only in that form when the cell divides. It is usually in very convoluted tight coils, but tiny part of it can open up at certain times.

There is a field called Epigenetics now, which shows how environment can influence nuclear DNA. That is why one twin can get a disease and the other does not.

 
Even so, genetics of an individual influence the molecular maleup of the person. An alcoholic (ETOH)  may have more ETOH receptors on their cells and therefore will have more impact on the cells. Or they may lack P450 enzymes in their livers that help metabolize it, women have less than men, and are usually more susciplet to getting drunk dififferent races metabolize it differently that is why certain races not exposed to it over the generations are more susceptible to becoming alcoholics. Certain chemical exposure in utero can cause the fetus to be susceptible to the chemical when they are exposed later in life.

Our brains and or hormones and immune system can easily be altered by the environment, therefore I can easily see how even thoughts can change the system. But God is still in control because He brings all of these things into one’s life. Identical twins are not exact duplicates or copies they each have their own thoughts and have different environments (left side or right side of the uterus, etc). They each have their own "Ruach " spirit. 

Even though each parent contributes a gamete cell, it is God that determines the LIFE that He puts into that Zygote at conception….also at artificial insemination and even with cloning. God is still in control.even in infertility treatments.  I do think however that man will pay a price for his interference.

Since we can now freeze eggs, it is possible for a woman to give birth to her great grandmother so you see that these family trees are going to get twisted into knots.

Also with excessive insemination etc it is possible that two sibs could marry by accident and similar DNA cause malfunction at critical junctions, hence more chance for certain disorders, like you see in royal lines (I never noticed thos eyes until you mentioned it) that are overbred, same thing for tight communitits like the Amish for example who do not marry outside the clan and the clans decrease in size over time.

Man certainly like to muck things, they are experimenting in England and were they were putting human nuclear DNA into cow eggs. They said they were doing stem cell research…I for certain do not want any of these cells. 

The cells would all have cow mitochondrial DNA. As the organism duplicates each cell will have these because these duplicate too with each cell division. I think they would develope into a human but they will share some of the cellular immunity of a cow. In that society I guess all cow jokes and symbols will need to be banned so as to not hurt their feelings.

I think the phenomenon of the heart transplant touches on a very deep human trait. If I tell you to point where you think “you” are in your body body….where did you point ? Well 99.99 point to their heart area….people tend to think of this area as their essence…but it is just a automatic piece of pumping meat.

I on the other hand am an idiot and one of those who pointed to my head.. 

I believe that the carnal mind is a summation of your organic matter that your spirit has animated. This is all entirely individualized and all totally God controlled.   

Man thinks he knows a lot but thankfully God has put in many safeguards into his creation, especially since he gave one of his silly creatures the ability to tinker.  I love that joke I posted where God says He should stopped with the elephants   

Beloved

[chav]

Hi

If the spirit returns to God who gave it, does this mean that in order to resurrect us with the same personality, then God would also have to bring the heart back to Him? Seeing that flesh and blood (including the heart) CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God, do you think that God will have to rethink His ideas? Perhaps part of our spirit resides in the blood, and part of it resides in the heart? I think not.

I'm not suggesting anything remotely like that, but I recognise that our knowledge about the mind ,memory ,and consciousnes even in this day and age remains limited. There is plenty we don't know ,that's all.

Dave, there might come a day when humans will have a pig's heart transplanted into their body. I wonder what thoughts and feelings they would have then?

I wonder ? Perhaps the recipients will miraculously develop the ability to sniff out truffles and enjoy wallowing in mud .
Personally something in me finds the idea of animal organ donation pretty distasteful.

Dave

 

[hillsbororiver]

I'm not suggesting anything remotely like that, but I recognise that our knowledge about the mind ,memory ,and consciousnes even in this day and age remains limited. There is plenty we don't know ,that's all.

Hi Dave,

I am with you here Brother, I find that the more I learn the more I become acutely aware of how little I really know, each answer summons up at least two more questions, I find this to be true especially in matters spiritual.

There were some very interesting responses here and I always give great weight to Beloved's expert and professional opinions and even though our present knowledge of biology would preclude this type of phenomena as being "real" it is very real to the person who is experiencing it.

I found myself having a great deal of empathy for this woman, to even think of going through something as invasive as a heart/lung transplant makes me cringe, literally. To have profound changes in my tastes, attitude and even my physical bearing in it's wake would be extremely difficult to brush aside cavalierly.

This certainly is an interesting journey, it is a strange and even bizarre experience, isn't it?

Peace,

Joe
 

[hebrewroots98]

Excellent info beloved, thanks for going into detail for us; and eggi, you are correct, blood donor recipients do not take on the traits of their donors, (although many have claimed this before.)  (I cannot donate blood due to the DU (depleted Uranium) that is in my blood...thankfully I am an honest person who would never donate my blood and take the chances of poisnoning someone else...of course the blood banks never check for such things either!) Also, eggi, I love your point about how God  would have to retain our hearts in order to retain our personalities (if this lady's story was true)...and we all know that that is NOT going to happen...thankfully!

[Kat]

Interesting story and bizarre for sure.  But I do not think it has to do with her 'new' heart at all.  As Beloved said, but it is just a automatic piece of pumping meat.  I believe the woman is sincere, but I do not believe that this new heart is the problem.  Where I believe this matter lies is in the mind of this woman.

Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I believe that these "principalities" are the root cause of most all of the strange and bizarre occurrences in this world. 
It is the mind that is these "rulers of the darkness of this world" have a playground. I mean there is no limit to what the mind is capable of thinking up and to have these "principalities" constantly seeking whom they can devour (1Peter 5:08).  Well they are indeed devouring the sound reasoning of many people, because people do believe in some foolish things.

Psa 81:12  So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hebrewroots98]

Amen to that Kat!  That sums up the whole issue here (for myself anyway.)

[hillsbororiver]

Hi all,

Great insight Kat, I agree the mind is the devil's playground, especially if one is not tethered to Christ. My feeling is that it does not really matter if this is caused by the transplanted heart or not, the woman is experiencing this and it is very real to her and those around her as well as some other heart transplant patients.

As Dave wrote earlier in the thread we still do not know everything about how the body and mind interact with each other, as history has repeatedly shown us yesterday's facts can become tomorrow's follies.

Ever hear of "phantom pain" syndrome? This is also something that is illogical with varying opinions and theories but is very real to those who experience it.

Phantom Pain: Location and Causation
 
Hillary Bobys

After amputation, individuals may experience feelings of the removed limb still being attached to their body, either partially (the fingers are felt, but the arm is not) or fully (1). These sensations, known as phantom limb syndrome or phantom pain, have been the subject of many debates in determining where and how such sensations arise. Phantom pain is described as "cramping, shooting, aching, hand clenched in a tight fist, toes out of joint, frozen or rigid joints, or any combination of these" (1) and usually subsides within a year after surgery. Another common sensation is "telescoping", where the hand or foot is felt as though it is directly attached to the stump (2). This shortening of the removed limb is considered a good sign because it does not usually occur with phantom pain (3). All of these sensations are quite frequent, however, and many websites provide information on how to help alleviate and prevent pain (1).
Amputees are not the only people who have phantom sensations; those with spinal cord injuries, peripheral nerve injury, diabetic neuropathy, and stroke survivors all report similar feelings (4). In each of these instances, deafferentations of the nerves occur, thereby destroying pathways for information to reach the brain. It is research on such patients that will enable researchers to find therapy and medication to alleviate phantom sensations and pain.

One structure commonly implicated in phantom limb syndrome is the motor cortex. The motor cortex is the region of the brain that sends information to motorneurons by representing a map of the body in the brain. Some researchers believe that the nerve cells that served the amputated limb reorganize after amputation to be used by other parts of the body. Others, however, suspect that the brain reorganizes, yet continues to represent the entire limb even after amputation. Data on both of these possibilities exist. Researchers have been able to produce phantom sensations "by stimulating the region of the thalamus found to represent the phantom limb" (5). To counter these effects, it has been suggested that the production of anti-growth factor be stimulated. This would, in turn, prevent new growth and discontinue the effects of the removed limb (5).

Yet, phantom pain can occur by touching other areas of the body (6). Brain imaging has shown that new connections are formed so that "the cortex reorganizes and the neurons that were responding to... input start to respond to other parts of the arm" (6). One may surmise from the research that indeed some sort of reorganization of neurons is taking place to best adapt the body to its new circumstances. Phantom pain is central pain and, therefore, does not respond to substances that block peripheral pain. One researcher suggests that the only way to treat phantom pain is by lesioning the brain centers (6). This is the path that one man took to alleviate his chronic pain after six years of narcotics treatment. In a five-hour surgery, his physician cauterized his spine in 92 places, successfully relieving the pain (7).

Other treatments for phantom pain are subhypnotic propofol testing and extradural cortical stimulation to the primary motor cortex (8). Both of these treatments rely on evidence found from experiments involving the parietal lobe, which is the area of the brain where one processes the most abstract neural functions such as body sensations (including pain) and logic. In more the more extreme cases, such as the man mentioned above, neurectomy, rhizotomy, dorsal root entry zone lesions, chordotomy, and thalamotomy may also be possible routes in pain relief (3). There is also an indication, however, that simple activities such as stroking, tapping, or squeezing the limb, exercising the limb, wearing a prosthesis, shrinker, or ace bandage all may help alleviate phantom pain.

New research is pointing to phantom pain and its associations with spasticity as a means for treatment. GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter, is used to treat spasticity and may be a viable option for the treatment of phantom limb pain as well, because of its anti-nociceptive capability (4). Nonciceptors are the receptor cells that respond selectively to noxious stimulation. When anti-nociception is induced (through a drug called baclofen), it reduces the pain threshold, whereas analgesia suppresses the actual pain sensation (4). Baclofen is particularly effective for patients suffering from deafferentation (amputees and spinal cord injury patients) and may be an option other than surgery for those suffering from phantom pain.

Stemming from ideas in phantom limb research, questions of the body's self-awareness arise. Those describing phantom limb tell of definite outlines and movements coming from a part of the body no longer there. Spatial mechanisms in the brain must be interacting in some way with movement mechanisms even after amputation (9). The implications of these ideas are far reaching. If an adult's brain can reorganize to accommodate to a new situation, the possibilities for research in neural flexibility expands immensely. In addition, treatment for phantom pain may be more accessible to patients in the future and prepare those in medicine with ways to prevent the pain (3) and treat these patients.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro00/web1/Bobys.html

The following is informative as well;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

Peace,

Joe