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Author Topic: Miracles today  (Read 15651 times)

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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« on: May 11, 2006, 02:01:27 AM »

Hi all,

Let's talk about miracles.
First, I think we can all agree that life itself, and all that means is a miracle, that's a given, so let's talk more specifically.

When Jesus and his "first gen" disciples performed miracles, no one argued that he performed them, not even his enemies, they just tried to steal his glory. I've never traveled outside of N. America to a third world nation so my perspective is limited, but it seems to me that in America we call a lot of things miracles, that can easily be reconciled. That's not to say God isn't in all creation, and therefore in all situations, but a cold that gets healed 2 weeks after someone says a prayer can hardly be the kind of miracle, even the Pharasies recognized as undeniable. Jesus never worked with the doctors of the day, he waited until the patient was dead....

I personally have never seen someone, confirmed dead for 4 days, raised, or an amputated leg restored, etc. and I'd like to know if those kinds of undeniable miracles still follow the preaching of the gospel, or if they were only supposed to follow those that were instrumental in establishing the early church and all the scriptures.

I recently listened to a terrible story where a wife had massive instestinal failure, was supposed to die, and underwent extensive surgery, two days later the surgeon looked at her and said, "those aren't the intestines I operated on, God must have given her new ones", then a day later those "new" intestines collapsed and her pastor husband spent months nursing her back to health, via introvenous feeding and slow inflation of the intestines. She is alive and well today. Now that's a horrible situation no doubt, but I'm not sure if calling it a miracle is appropriate. See what I mean? I just can't picture Jesus or Paul healing that way.

There's so much "Christian Physic readings" via "personal prophesy and other seriously diluted gifts of the Spirit like miracles, that it's hard to believe much of anyone.

What are these greater things that were to follow Christ's Ascension?

Does anyone have any solid scripture or personal experience on this?

-Cy
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mcmiller

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 12:04:14 PM »

Hello Cy,
As an engineer and scientist I rely on the law of cause and effect to do my work.  Cause and effect is another way of stating the biblical principle of sowing and reaping.  That said, to me, any physical effect that can be tied to a physical cause is not a miracle, it's just the way things work.  A miracle, to my reckoning, is when God steps in and violates the law of cause and effect.  A good case in point is when Jesus changed plain water into fine wine.  There is no known natural series of events that would cause such a thing to happen.  If it did, we would be up to our armpits in wine every time we went swimming in a lake.  The same thing is true with healings and raising from the dead.  Recovery from illness is something that God put in us, and in most cases we recover naturally.  In the cases of things like blindness or leprosy, which Jesus healed, these were miracles because these illness are not naturally healed by the body.  Jesus intervened outside of the law of cause and effect to bring about healing that was unmistakably miraculous.

Hope this helps.

Mark
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shibboleth

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 12:54:07 PM »

I am not an engineer or a scientist, but I am a skeptic. If you read teh accounts of Jesus performing miracles in the Bible, you will find some traits common to them all.
1. Jesus NEVER rented a building for a public show of miracles. His miracles were spontaneous sick people came to him with every conceivalble illness. ( Faith {fake} healers hand pick who comes on stage. Many people in wheelchairs can waslk, and people who are "deaf" can hear.
2. Anyone healed by Jesus, was healed. I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that a healed person got his disease again because he "lost his faith."  ( Faith healers never verify that the people they "heal" are healed. Many people who were healed by Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Leroy Jenkins, Kathryn Kuhlman, etc. died later. Or, many of them went back to their Drs. for treatment.
3. There are a few ministries who have offered much money for proof of one miracles. They still have their money.
4. If someone takes medicine or has an operation, that is not a miracles. So many of these "healed" people have had operations and take medicine. I think, if someone would sue Benny Hinn for false advertising, he just might be shut down. I wonder if he pays people hush money?
5. As terrible as it is to watch a loved one suffer from an illness, it is far worse to watch them suffer at the hands of a fake healer who won't have anything to do with people who are paralyed. Let them heal a truly paralyzed person and I might believe they aren't total phony hypocrites.
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 01:43:13 PM »

See where I struggle isn't so much with the Big TV phonies, They are the WWF of Christian TV, and there will always be feeble minded people that have an unquenchable need to believe in them and in the National Enquirer.

I have watched far greater numbers of local churches genuinely believe will all their hearts, that signs and wonders would follow their testimony as it did the disciples, and they'll credit any deemed positive occurance, a miracle, because they want it so badly. They say the bible commands them to lay hands on and pray for the sick, and even the dead, but I just haven't seen the "poof" miracles that are supposed to accompany such actions.

I'd love to KNOW that God is still performing REAL miracles today, that would be great, but I just personally haven't seen it, and all my christian friends get offended that I would even question the "miraculously healed cancer" that was healed by the end of their chemo/radiation treatments.

There is no doubt that everyone Jesus healed and raised from the dead, has since died (although personally I doubt from the same thing they were originally healed from). So being granted a miracle isn't a grant of immortality, it was just to demonstrate the merit of the message of Christ, and maybe to destroy the works of the enemy. Christ was being manifest.

Does anyone see that Jesus was saying that the greater things that would be done, extend to today, or were just during that "first gen" of believers, to validate the scriptures? When signs and wonders followed the message of the gospel as a witness, was that a witness of that message or is it supposed to continue as a witness for the evangelists of today?
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alucard

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 02:11:40 PM »

i deleted my post becuase i'd prefer not to talk about this anymore
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 02:35:01 PM »

Care to share what some of those miracles might be?
I'd like to know that real miracles do still happen, not just things that are hard to explain. One person's difficulty is another's expertise....
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orion77

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 03:12:14 PM »

Cy, from what I've witnessed, the greatest miracle God is doing is in our rebirth.  Being born of the Spirit, drawn to the truths by our Father, put through the fire, recognizing who the beast is, dying daily to live for Christ are all great spiritual miracles, being created in His image.  I see these things and many more that far exceeds physical healings.  These are the greater things He spoke of, for He had to die, be resurrected and then restored back to the glory He had with the Father, before He could come in Spirit and power.

Going from the carnal minded to being spiritual minded is miraculous.  It's a whole new paradigm.  Things become clearer and clearer, brighter and brighter each day, truly amazing.

That is the way I see it, hope this helps.

God bless,

Gary
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 04:00:53 PM »

I fully agree with your point, however, it is in a different direction than the topic was intending to target. All of your points are well spoken and seem true enough, but bear with me as I try to keep the thread on the exact topic.
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alucard

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 04:11:37 PM »

deleted
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 04:33:14 PM »

I'm thankful for your faith and would never want to harm that in any way, I pray your life overflow with the knowledge of God and confidence in Him. My questions aren't intended to harm anyone, only to increase my perspective. Thanks for your view.
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alucard

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 04:46:16 PM »

deleted
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Kevin

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 05:12:14 PM »

I have witnessed several miracles. But like you said Jesus said that we would do greater things. This often bothered me in my early walk with the the Lord. Jesus raised the dead physically. But to share His word with someone and it take root and that person is raised spiritually from the dead I believe that is a greater miracle than raising someone physically from the dead. The flesh profits nothing.
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 05:58:03 PM »

There's no question the greatest miracle is God's "Big Picture" plan, I think we can all agree on that, but that is not the topic I was trying to discuss, so I'm hoping that we can stick to that.  :lol:
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Kevin

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 06:21:58 PM »

Sorry, Thought that I was sticking to your topic. You asked what the greater things would be. I thought that I answered that :? Does it say anywhere that the greater things would be physical things.
Im sure Benny could answer your question :lol:
Anyway sorry couldnt help.
God bless
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Becky

  • Guest
Re: Miracles today
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 06:25:56 PM »

Quote from: Cy

I personally have never seen someone, confirmed dead for 4 days, raised, or an amputated leg restored, etc. and I'd like to know if those kinds of undeniable miracles still follow the preaching of the gospel, or if they were only supposed to follow those that were instrumental in establishing the early church and all the scriptures....

...What are these greater things that were to follow Christ's Ascension?

Does anyone have any solid scripture or personal experience on this?

-Cy


The "greater things" that you asked about has been addressed as "spiritual things" that others have posted here..

I personally have never witnessed a physical miracle as in a persons eyes touched and immediately healed.  I do not think that it is what we're supposed to be focusing on or worrying about.  It truely becomes spiritual.

Here are examples of the "greater things":

(Matthew 9.1-8; Mark 2.1-12)
 17One day some Pharisees and experts in the Law of Moses sat listening to Jesus teach. They had come from every village in Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem.
   God had given Jesus the power to heal the sick, 18and some people came carrying a crippled man on a mat. They tried to take him inside the house and put him in front of Jesus. 19But because of the crowd, they could not get him to Jesus. So they went up on the roof, [a] where they removed some tiles and let the mat down in the middle of the room. 20When Jesus saw how much faith they had, he said to the crippled man, "My friend, your sins are forgiven."

    21The Pharisees and the experts began arguing, "Jesus must think he is God! Only God can forgive sins."

    22Jesus knew what they were thinking, and he said, "Why are you thinking that? 23Is it easier for me to tell this crippled man that his sins are forgiven or to tell him to get up and walk? 24But now you will see that the Son of Man has the right to forgive sins here on earth." Jesus then said to the man, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk home."
    25At once the man stood up in front of everyone. He picked up his mat and went home, giving thanks to God. 26Everyone was amazed and praised God. What they saw surprised them, and they said, "We have seen a great miracle today!"



ALSO:

Matthew 21:21
 
21But Jesus said to them, "If you have faith and don't doubt, I promise that you can do what I did to this tree. And you will be able to do even more. You can tell this mountain to get up and jump into the sea, and it will.



Jesus points out that there is more to the miracles than physical.

So Hopefully I haven't been writing things that you didn't want as off topic like.... sorry if i did...but anyway, these are great verses!
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 09:25:49 PM »

They are great verses, I agree! I'm just trying to becareful to delineate between the greatness of spiritual wonder, physical miracles, and wanton  imagination.

Let me be very clear that at no level am I trying to diminish the wonder and magnitude of the spiritual teachings and life, nor do i disagree with any of the responders to my post, of just how great a thing is the spiritual gift of life!!

But specifically, I'm referring to scripture and experience that ranks with the undeniable miracles, performed by Christ and His disciples, as opposed to what are called miracles by most christians.

Last year my wife needed heart surgery, and she recovered, was it a miracle? Hardly, God made bodies to be self-repairing and the medical team worked with that. My mom has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, but has slowly been improving as she submits to her magnum treatment package. Is that a miracle? I doubt Jesus would be impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be so amazed and grateful if these physical problems could have been miraculously & instantly healed so that even critics could not have questioned it, but it didn't happen that way.

A good friend of mine lost his 12 years old daughter after 4 operations, though everyone prayed for a miracle for her physical body, there was none. She is dead for a couple years now.

I hope this makes my discussion target more clear.

Regards, to all you brethren that have taken the time to respond and offer you perspective, and do so in such a courteous manner.
-Cy
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gmik

  • Guest
miracles today
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 09:53:32 PM »

Interesting topic.  Being in the charismatic/pentecostal movement for years I always wanted to see miracles.  We would have special speakers who would talk about miracles that happened....at his last meeting, but nothing would ever happen the night I was there. Seems like there is a lot of miracles in Africa-dead raising and blind eyes opening-we were told they are very receptive over there.

 Now, this is the truth, one night in the car I was complaining about my hands and how it felt like i was wearing gloves they were so tight.  Later that night after the sermon the pastors wife had a "word of knowledge" that some one needed prayer because their hands felt like they were wearing gloves. So I went forward and got prayed for. I quit taking artritis medicine.  That was years ago but  now little by little I feel it coming back.

My sister-in-law was diagnosed with lymphoma when she was in her twenties and given 3 months to live.  We all attacked it with prayer and belief for 30 years!  When she died at age 50 we were shell shocked-could not believe it.

A friend of mine finally dragged her husband to a healing service.  He was high and didn't mind--well he instantly sobered up and "got saved" and never did drugs ever again.  Still serving the Lord since the good ole 70's.

I know tons of these kinds of stories-many happened to me.  HOWEVER, :D NOW I still pray for things and people to get well, but I know it is all of God, by God and Through God, so I don't have the same mind set as I did.  It is His Will, and If He wills it I will get healed, not if I prayed enough or had "faith" enough.

PS   even back then I could not bear the Benny Hinn stuff  Oh,....I did get caught up in the 88 ways Jesus is coming back in 88!! :oops:
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Cy

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2006, 12:03:03 AM »

:lol: LOL I never heard of the 88 in '88, that'll be something I must read up on, I wonder how it all worked out?  :wink:

Thanks for the input!
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Miracles today
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2006, 03:10:23 AM »

Cy, and anyone interested. Someone once asked Ray this same question. The email is entititled "Are miracles for Today?"

Here is the email along with Rays reply - Its from the main page of this site.

Quote
Hello Ray,
 
I have three questions:

I would like to know what you believe scripture to say on the subject of healing for today.
 
Do you think we are able to do the same miracles as Jesus? If so, why do we not see this more often?
 
The scripture in John 14: 13, 14.  Why don't our petitions get answered like Jesus said?
Thank you for your time,

Cindy

[Ray Replies]

Dear Cindy:

Many assume that the statements that Jesus made to his eleven apostles on the evening of His arrest, were a blanket statement to all believers to follow, for all time. This is not so.

Jesus did do many miracles through His apostles after His death and resurrection. He promised them the gift of the Holy Spirit (Comforter), which would give them faith and power to spread His gospel message.

This came true fifty days later on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles were given the gift of tongues so that they could even speak in foreign languages which none of them had ever studied. They were able to heal the sick. And they even RAISED THE DEAD. Peter and Paul both RAISED THE DEAD.

These special miracle gifts did not follow all generations of the church. Even later in the ministry of the apostles, God began to withdraw these gifts. No one was raised from the dead in their later ministry. Paul said that "tongues would cease" in I Cor. 13. Only "faith, hope [expectation] and charity [love]" were to "NOW remain...."  Some of Paul best friends and servants in spreading the gospel were sick and not healed. Paul told his dear friend Timothy, to "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thine OFT [MANY] INFIRMITIES. God did NOT heal them. Do we think that Paul did not even ask?

Many in the charismatic church try to make a carnival exhibition of such gifts, but I am afraid all they do is deceive.

However, with that said, does God no longer perform miracles or healings? Yes, He does. I have seen and experienced them. Does He always heal? Does He always alleviate our problems and trials? NO. Why should we pray for God to TAKE AWAY all the things that are absolutely NECESSARY FOR OUR FAITH AND PERFECTION?

Don't neglect to ask God for EVERYTHING you feel you should have. But don't be disappointed if God allows you to CONTINUE IN YOUR TRIALS. Sometimes He removes certain trials after a period of time. We do not know when and how or even if God will do this that or the other thing, so we keep praying.  I ask for STRENGTH AND FAITH to face my trials and OVERCOME my flesh. I no longer pray for God to make me HEALTHY, WEALTHY AND WISE, with absolutely no price to pay for such privileges.

This site is an answer to prayer. My understanding of the Scriptures is an answer to prayer. Everything I have is an answer to prayer. I pray for others and many times, GOD ANSWERS MY PRAYERS! But I do NOT always heal the sick through my prayers, I do not make people wealthy through my prayers, and I have NEVER raised the dead through my prayers. So don't stop praying!! And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, thank God for all that you have.

And then, don't WORRY about anything. Phil. 4:6 is a terrible translation in the KJV. Instead of "Be careful in nothing..." it should read:

"DON'T WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING..."

God be with you,

Ray


I don't know if that helps anyone but i thought you might be interested. I found it interesting.

As for miracles IMO, im sure God works them all the time, wether they be small or great, but wether He does or not, shouldn't be the reason for our faith.

People always look for God to manifest Himself TOO His children, but what people don't realise is that God manifests Himself IN His children.

God bless,

Alex.
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Chris R

  • Guest
hi
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2006, 08:51:09 AM »

Hello,


 Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  

Why does Christ say "many" will say unto me? Is it beause there are so "few" miracles preformed today? Why not say the "few" will say to me?

Who are these people that have done many wonderful works, and have cast out devils. Aren't these miracles? I would say so.

 Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.  

 Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.  

Yes there are miracles performed in the name of Jesus Christ even today, so that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.  2Cr 11:14

These miracles are from God, for Gods plan and purpose, and for no other reason.  One must understand that this reason may not be to our liking.

 Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?  

 Jhn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.  


Peace to you all

Chris R
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