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[David]

I watched a program that's shown on BBC in the early hours called hard talk. The guest was Professor Richard Dawkins. He was asked this very profound question. (wording may not be exact, I'm paraphrasing from memory) "If as you say, our brains and thought pattern's are the result of Darwinian evolution, subject only to the laws of natural selection, that we have evolved from various primitive pre human species into modern man, that our concept of morality and society is based on Darwinian utility, then surely if religion is a myth, the laws of evolution would have reasoned and evolved such foolish thinking out of our modern psyche? How then do you explain that at no time in human history have there been more Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's and people of other faiths than at this present time, when human understanding and knowledge is at its highest ever?" 
Well, Dawkins looked positively shaken by this concept, and his answer......"You would have to put that question to a Psychologist, I'm a biologist."
Sure does punch a big hole in the atheistic hypotheses, they argue we are evolving, more advanced with each generation, yet more of us believe in a God than at any other time in history.

[Kent]

That displays a principle I have noticed about this particular kind of atheist: They attack God with such a fervency that you would swear that they believed in Him.

If there is no God, why attack Him and those that believe? Why bother? Imagine wasting all of that energy hating something that they dont even acknowledge exists.

It's like me declaring war on the tooth fairy, writing a book about it, going on radio and TV, being a Mr Big Shot VIP in the anti-tooth fairy movement; all  because some young kids believe in it.

[Craig]

Misery loves company

Craig

[KristaD]

It's like me declaring war on the tooth fairy, writing a book about it, going on radio and TV, being a Mr Big Shot VIP in the anti-tooth fairy movement; all  because some young kids believe in it.

They sound even more stupid when you put it that way

[phazel]

Actually, many atheists are not attacking God as much as they attack the theology and goals of some Christians.


The Question that stumped Dawkins typically is the cornerstone of Christians who wish to remove evolution from classroom teaching and stick God in every place that science does not have an answer for.

[Sorin]

That displays a principle I have noticed about this particular kind of atheist: They attack God with such a fervency that you would swear that they believed in Him.

If there is no God, why attack Him and those that believe? Why bother? Imagine wasting all of that energy hating something that they dont even acknowledge exists.

It's like me declaring war on the tooth fairy, writing a book about it, going on radio and TV, being a Mr Big Shot VIP in the anti-tooth fairy movement; all  because some young kids believe in it.

If there is no God, why attack Him and those that believe? Why bother? I'll tell you why they bother; because Atheists believe in Science, education, and rational thinking. Thus they view 'God believers' as irrational and delusional, and it's all due to their belief in "God". They want a world in which people believe only in things that are proven, and rational.

Also, what you said about the tooth fairy is a bad comparison. Firstly, because those are kids, and secondly; you are just putting yourself down, by comparing your beliefs to those of kids'. A better comparison would be if grown men still believed in the Tooth Fairy, wouldn't you find that stupid and irrational? Now, when you look at it from that point of view, you are more in line with the way Atheists view religious people. 

[indianabob]

Gentle folks of the forum,

In my youth I was one to observe the mistakes of others and comment upon them in order to make myself feel better.
When a person is picked upon in school or the play yard, it is tempting to say things such as you're MORE stupid or you're ugly etc.
I think when people observe the hypocrisy of their Christian neighbors, it is easy denigrate their beliefs as dumb and stupid and of no practical value.  It is important to remember that the atheist are just as deceived as the nominal Christian or the nominal Jew who has never studied the teachings of their own faith or cracked open a Bible.  What the atheist may be saying is that Christians they are familiar with are believing in fairy tales very similar to the tooth fairy and they, the atheist, aren't falling for it.

How many Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and yet their church teaches that he spent the three days in the "hell" teaching sinners of the gospel?  They learn that sinners who drink alcohol to excess are going to burn in "hell" until they attend the funeral service to discover that the same drunk has been forgiven by the pastor and is now looking down from heaven upon the service in his honor.

It may be that we need to think of atheist in the same forgiving manner that we do deceived Christians. 
Some of them at least are being intellectually honest in their observations of Christian conduct and beliefs.

Just something to consider.

Indianabob

[Kent]

If there is no God, why attack Him and those that believe? Why bother? I'll tell you why they bother; because Atheists believe in Science, education, and rational thinking. Thus they view 'God believers' as irrational and delusional, and it's all due to their belief in "God". They want a world in which people believe only in things that are proven, and rational.

I also believe in science, education, and rational thinking. But I am not an atheist.
If they dont want to acknowledge that Christians aren't irrational or delusional, there is nothing I can say to them to change their minds, because their minds are already made up.

What makes them think they can change another persons beliefs and worldview, any more than you or I can? In a way, it is like finding Rays' site. The truths expressed resonated with me. I found what I was looking for after many false starts and a lot of errors. But if someone sent me a link, and I wasn't ready for it, I wouldn't have bothered reading anything.

Also, what you said about the tooth fairy is a bad comparison. Firstly, because those are kids, and secondly; you are just putting yourself down, by comparing your beliefs to those of kids'.

I am not putting myself down, I just say what this kind of atheists would say about me. To them, I am like a kid, a rather stupid kid at that. And, I dont care. It's all a part of the persecution we all face. I wont change to make myself acceptable to them, and I bet no one here would do that either.

You know what scripture says about them, and what God thinks of their "philosophies".

[chav]

Hi

That displays a principle I have noticed about this particular kind of atheist: They attack God with such a fervency that you would swear that they believed in Him.

I have often had that thought myself about Dawkins.

Dawkins is revered here in the UK ,he has a free reign with the BBC and the media , and is dubbed as the nation's  'favorite atheist'. Usually he is wheeled out when there is some controversy regarding creation.When he is on TV or the radio ,he is very rarely pitted against any scientist , but usually ends up debating with some hapless cleric who hasn't a clue.

It makes absolute sense if evolution was true ,to evolve a species that didn't have the ability to have differing ideas thoughts and philosophies. what with all the wars and conflict going on ,one would have thought any selfish gene would have sorted that out first if the species is to survive.

It's a good question , and one I have often pondered on myself.

Dave UK

[Kent]

Yes.

 I'd think that if there was evolution, we'd finally have the ability to get along after all these millions of years. But we are as deadly as ever, with just a thin veneer of civilization that is easily removed at the drop of a hat  or for no real reason at all.

[phazel]

Thus they view 'God believers' as irrational and delusional, and it's all due to their belief in "God". They want a world in which people believe only in things that are proven, and rational.

By and large most athiests are fearful of fundamentalist christians who say athiests are evil and want Gods wrath to come down upon them and would be happy to see God torture and destroy some unrepentant atheist that didn;t listen to them.

Most forums I have been in when a faith in God does not point the finger at them to repent or burn in hell forever they don't have much to say in hatred.   there still are some, I am sure, but not the majority.

Universalists / no free will christians are not trying to push bad science into the classroom, the fundamentalists are.

It really is Christian theology and angendas that Atheists are against when it comes right down to it.   

[musicman]

I started reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion".  Let me first state, that I agree with about 90% of what the man says.  The only things that I don't agree with are that there is no God and that evolution is a theory backed up by strong, unquestionable evidence.  People like Dawkins are doing God's people a service.  They are showing little bits of evidence, and proving their God (maybe Satan) given blindness by emphatically claiming that it removes a need for a designer.  It is a miracle that people of such intellect can't see the giant holes in their theory while I can.

But as far as Dawkins, I agree with him about the irrationality of most religious people.  I agree with him, that one (out of fear of some hell) can attend church every Sunday, swear belief on a stack of bibles, do whatever rituals the church members suggest, and that person may still not believe in God.  He all but proves that people have to be called to belief.  Neither Dawkins nor I understand why Muslims get so upset when somebody insults their beliefs by making an image of Mohamed.  The point is, is that there are smart and dumb theists as well as atheists.  What makes one a staunch believer in one or the other?

And as far as evolution, I think it's a big mistake to keep it's teaching away from children.  How are people going to defend their faith when they really don't understand evolution?  They can call me ignorant if they like.  But I can at least tell people what problems I see in the hypothesis of evolution.  Afterall, I know what evolution is.  I also realize that the cosmic origins have nothing to do with the hypothesis of evolution.  Many of the evolution believers don't realize this.   

[hillsbororiver]

By and large most athiests are fearful of fundamentalist christians who say athiests are evil and want Gods wrath to come down upon them and would be happy to see God torture and destroy some unrepentant atheist that didn;t listen to them.

Isn't it interesting that James and John before they were converted behaved in a manner very similar to what the fundamentalists (and others) tend to say (or privately hope) about those who do not share their beliefs?

Luk 9:51  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
 
Luk 9:52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
 
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
 
Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Peace,

Joe

[Kent]

Amen! Thank you.

[mrl1970]

And as far as evolution, I think it's a big mistake to keep it's teaching away from children.  How are people going to defend their faith when they really don't understand evolution?  They can call me ignorant if they like.  But I can at least tell people what problems I see in the hypothesis of evolution.  Afterall, I know what evolution is.  I also realize that the cosmic origins have nothing to do with the hypothesis of evolution.  Many of the evolution believers don't realize this.   

The problem is that in schools they do not teach evolution as a theory they teach it as if it is fact.

[kweli]

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Joe[/color]

Someone I know likes to say "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing". So I suppose if we keep the main thing the main thing we wont get tangled into this whole facts vs fairy tale tale

[UncleBeau]

When I think of athiests arguing with christians, I think of the world as a painting and God is the painter. God is teaching us to paint, but some believe that the painting got there itself through pure chance, whilst arguing with those that can only fingerpaint with ketchup.

[David]

After reading his book and seeing many of his lectures and interviews, I find Dawkins to be guilty of the very thing he seems to abhore in certain religious people, he's irrational and borders on the fanatical. His objections to religion and scripture are spurious. He's a brilliant man, no doubt about it, but he often catches himself out with his own arguments. His intellectual vanity is easily stroked when debating most people defending  Christianity and the scriptures, because they don't understand their own faith and religion.
I don't think the problem is with the understanding of science or evolution, its all down to the understanding of God on both sides of the debate. Both sides of the debate have God as a white haired old man sitting on a cosmic cloud surrounded by legions of winged angels with lightening bolts coming from His fingers, and a God that just waved his hand and the universe and everything in it just appeared in 6 24 hour days.
He also has this stupid notion that the world is full of Christians, Muslims and Jews that want to reject science completely, reject progress and return to the dark ages. There may be some nut jobs in the world that would support such a crazy idea, but thankfully they are few enough to be completely ignored.

[musicman]

And as far as evolution, I think it's a big mistake to keep it's teaching away from children.  How are people going to defend their faith when they really don't understand evolution?  They can call me ignorant if they like.  But I can at least tell people what problems I see in the hypothesis of evolution.  Afterall, I know what evolution is.  I also realize that the cosmic origins have nothing to do with the hypothesis of evolution.  Many of the evolution believers don't realize this.   

The problem is that in schools they do not teach evolution as a theory they teach it as if it is fact.

I'm sorry, but evolution should not be considered a theory.  A scientific theory is a hypothesis with well supported scientific evidence.  There is so much evidence against evolution that it should have been reduced back to a hypothesis a long time ago (at least in the last 20 years).  The best way to argue the position of creation is to call evolution a hypothesis and not a theory.  Then tell them why. 

Again, we should not be afraid to learn what evolutionists are fully claiming.  If they want to call it a fact, let them.  I've talked to enough Christians who don't have a clue of what evolution implies.  They just know that they hate it.  They don't even know the difference between micro and macro evolution.  I say let kids learn as much as they can about it so that they will know what they are dismissing later. 

[mrl1970]

My mistake  musicman I should have called it a hypothesis. I had a history teacher who was a liberal admitted he was a liberal yet gave equal political arguments to different sides of history. He lets us use facts to form our own opinion.