> General Discussions
AGE OR ETERNAL ?
Bob Miller:
Hi Ray,
Very interesting insight that you give to God's word! I have a question, I was curious about which word was actually used in the Greek: aidios timoria or aionion kolasin?
Thanks for your help,
Bob
AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED.
There is but one Greek word beside aiónios rendered everlasting, and applied
to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."
Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal,and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aiónios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aiónios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the
aiónion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?
1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the
former. The aidios chains are even as the aiónion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aiónios, indefinitely long.
2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aiónion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks
to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.
But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, he never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language
of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment.
His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described
unending ruin, he disciplined, resulting in reformation.
eggi:
Hello all,
I've been looking into Jude 1:6/2 Peter 2:4 and Romans 1:20 recently, because of the use of the word everlasting (aidios). The only translation I have found which does not translate aidios as everlasting is the Concordant Literal New Testament. The CLNT translates it unseen/imperceptible. This is because they claim that aidios is made up of a = not (as in hades), and idien (to see/perceive). The claim for translating aidios as everlasting is that it's made up of aei = always, and idios (the same). You then get always-same which become everlasting.
Do any of you have access to any sources which describe in detail why it must be either unseen/imperceptible or everlasting? I'm looking for verifiable sources.
This is what I have concluded so far:
Aidios is found only one other place in the Greek New Testament; in Romans 1:20. In the KJV it reads:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
If aidios is translated unseen in Romans 1:20 we get:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his unseen power and Godhead (Gk: divinity); so that they are without excuse:
Paul explains that the invisible things of God are clearly visible (evident), when we look at the things that are made, also [even; Gk: both] His unseen power and divinity. These visible things testify to God's unseen power and divinity; there is no excuse for saying that there is no God.
In Jude 1:6, the angels are reserved unto judgment. There is no mention of everlasting chains in what Peter writes. But Peter does describe the chains, explaining that these chains are “chains of darkness” (chains of thick gloom(Young's Literal Translation)). Peter and Jude both agree that these chains are hard to see (if aidios in Jude should be translated unseen). They are chains of thick gloom (total darkness), says Peter. Peter and Jude both agree about the darkness, they even use the same word; zophon. Gloomy darkness and imperceptible chains makes sense. Peter and Jude both agree that these chains are keeping these angels unto judgment. Saying that the chains are everlasting unto (until) is a bit strange. So, the word aidios
God bless you all,
Eirik
daywalker:
"Aidios" doesn't mean "eternal or everlasting", it means "imperceptible, unseen". If you read the context of each place it is found, this is clearly understood:
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his (imperceptible) power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Notice the comparison between things that are "clearly seen" and things that are "invisible" or "imperceptible". This passage has nothing to do with "time" or "endlessness". It's a comparison of "invisible" things that can be understood through things that can be seen. Notice also this passage is against false prophets and teachers (those who "suppress the truth"); not the unbelieving world.
Jude 1:5-7 Now I am intending to remind you, you who once are aware of all, that the Lord, when saving the people out of the land of Egypt, secondly destroys those who believe not. Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.
These "bonds" have nothing to do with "time" or "endlessness". These are "invisible" bonds--that is, invisible to those who wear them. Here's a few scriptural examples:
Rom 9:21-24 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
These "vessels of wrath" are people, and they have (had) no clue that God, the Potter, had molded them into vessels for "dishonorable use". They merely played their part. Notice they were "prepared" for destruction; prepared by the Potter of course! The clay has no authority to mold itself.
John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
By "son of destruction", Jesus is speaking of Judas Iscariot, the betrayer. Another "dishonorable vessel" playing out the part that he was "prepared" for by the Potter, so "that the Scripture might be fulfilled".
So, you see, scripturally speaking, the Greek "aidios" has nothing to do with "time" or "endlessness", but with the "invisible" and "imperceptible" things that God the Potter does with His Creation. Those of us with "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" can SEE (understand) these invisible things through what we have seen (witnessed, learned).
Hope this helps.
Daywalker 8)
eggi:
Thanks for your reply Daywalker. I am of the same opinion as you. However, I would like to see some more detailed explanation on why it is correct to translate aidios as unseen.
What I have now is really not proving anything:
Nathaniel Scarlett on Jude 1:6 "unseen chains" . . .
“Most Lexicon writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever or always: but it may have the same etymology as [h]ades, which they derive from a negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means unknown; because we see or know only a very small part of God's power.”
A statement like this does not prove. Scarlett himselves says: ... it may have the same etymology ... It doesn't demonstrated why. I'm looking for sources with explanations.
I repeat, I am of the same opinion as you. I think it's very probable that aidios means unseen. I see that the context of both Jude and 2 Peter speaks of dark (unseen) things. Nevertheless, it is not crystal clear that this means unseen. Many sources say that this word comes from aei = always and idios = same. I'm not a Greek scholar, obviously, so I'm looking for something more detailed than Scarlett's quote. Your point about "invisible bonds" is a good observation, but it doesn't quite match. These angels are in restraint, they are kept from doing something they want, whereas the vessels of wrath and the son of destruction voluntereed, and they weren't restrained.
There must be some scholars who can explain why unseen is a probable translation. Does anyone have a concordance or lexicon of any kind which explains the origin of the word in detail?
God bless you,
Eirik
Kat:
Hi eggi,
You are going to have a really hard time finding any scholars that will speak of aidios meaning anything but eternal. But here are a few more places where Ray says something about it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2657.0 ---------
"Aidios" assuredly DOES NOT mean "eternal." It means imperceptible or invisable. It has two elements "A" = not, and "idios" = see or perceive. Hence "not see or not perceive." What can BE seen in creation attests to what CANNOT BE SEEN in God's achievements. The bonds of the angels are not visible and literal physical chains, but "imperceptible" chains. It is very similar to the word "h - ades," which is also un perceive, hence unseen or imperceptible.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=733.0 ------------
The word AIDIOS appears only twice, in Rom 1:20, Jude 6 and ALL lexicons (Greek Dictionaries) call it a synonym for AIONIOS.
COMMENT: I am not sure that "ALL lecions" say aidios is synonymous with aionios. "aidion = UN-PERCEIVED, IMPERCEPTIBLE: Rom. 1:20 & Jude 6" (Concordant Greek-English Keyword Concordance, page 154). Read Rom. 1:20: "For the INVISISLBE things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly SEEN [invisible things can be seen? Yes], being understoodby the things that are MADE, EVEN HIS IMPERCEPTIBLE ['invisible'--SAME THOUGHT] and Godhead [Divinity"..." Actually a little elementary logic coupled with the context will clearly show any rational mind that the chains or bonds spoken of in this verse cannot possibly be "eternal" as the context clearly shows that these chains or bons are only, "...UNTO the judgment of the great day [which 'great day' is a designated "aionion" judgment of Jesus Christ (Acts 17:39--a period of lesser and greater chastisement, but a day nonetheless of "ASASURANCE" for all man kind because Jesus has paid the penalty for all sin).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11016.0 --------
The Greek word translated "eternal" in Rom. 1:20 and "everlasting" in Jude 6, is aidios, and is very similar
to the word "hades" translated "hell" in many English Bibles. Hades is a compount of ha and des. Ha means not or no--it is a negative. And des means to see or perceive.
When put together it means "unseen" or "imperceptible." Same is true of the word aidios. It is a compount of "a or ha" and "idios." Once again, "a or ha" is a negative meaning no or not, and idios likewise means to see or perceive. When put together the word means to not be able to see or imperceptible. This is further verified by its usage in Rom.
1:20. Notice that verse 20 starts off with, "for the INISIBLE things of Him [that would be things that are NOT made, NOT visible] from the creation of the world are clearly SEEN, being understood by the THINGS THAT ARE MADE [that would be things that ARE visible], even His IMPERCEPTIBLE power, and Divinity; so that they are without excuse."
There is little sense in telling us that God is eternal. If He weren't eternal, He wouldn't be God. No, Paul is telling us that we can understand some of God's great power even though it is invisible by itself. And we can do this by looking at the things God made, that ARE VISIBLE. The visible universe points to God's INvisible (imperceptible) POWER and DIVINITY. Hope this helps your understanding. There is no word in Scripture which means by definition: "eternal," or "endless time."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=6581.0 -----------
The word translated "eternal" in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 6 is "aidion." The "a" is a prefix meaning "un" or "no" or "not." It is a negative just as in the word "hades" which Dr. Strong correctly informs us is made up of "G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen" UN-seen, or NOT-seen--IMperceptible.
Well, aidion is very close to being the same word and means "IMperceptible, and this is precisely what the context of these two Scriptural usages prove.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known [something perceivable] of God is manifest [made perceivable] in them; for God hath showed [made perceivable] it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible [IMperceivable] things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made [what is NOT perceivable, NOT seen, CAN be seen by things that ARE SEEN, namely "the THINGS that are made], even His eternal power [yes, "even His UNseen, NOT seen, IMperceptable power" can BE SEEN by things that CAN BE SEEN, namely "the things that are made] and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
There is the contextual proof of the word, plain and simple. Now Jude:
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Once more, let's look at the context: Notice that these angels are "reserved." Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary). How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?" That is nonsense! That is terrible translating. Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day. These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible." How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"
Hope this helps your understanding. I have been answering this same question on aiodion for years now.
God be with you,
Ray
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version