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AGE OR ETERNAL ?
daywalker:
Sorry, Eirik, I missed this part of your reply yesterday:
--- Quote from: eggi on June 29, 2011, 01:26:53 PM ---Your point about "invisible bonds" is a good observation, but it doesn't quite match. These angels are in restraint, they are kept from doing something they want, whereas the vessels of wrath and the son of destruction voluntereed, and they weren't restrained.
God bless you,
Eirik
--- End quote ---
So, you suggest that these angels did not volunteer like the vessels of wrath and son of destruction did? Let's double-check that:
"Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds ..."
"the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home..." NIV
"the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling..." ESV
"has also held in eternal chains those angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their assigned place..." ISV
"I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged..." NLV
I would have to disagree with you. It seems clear these angels/messengers willingly (voluntarily) left their own place, and therefore as a result were placed in "imperceptible bonds".
Daywalker 8)
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 30, 2011, 10:22:31 AM ---
Sorry, Eirik, I missed this part of your reply yesterday:
--- Quote from: eggi on June 29, 2011, 01:26:53 PM ---Your point about "invisible bonds" is a good observation, but it doesn't quite match. These angels are in restraint, they are kept from doing something they want, whereas the vessels of wrath and the son of destruction voluntereed, and they weren't restrained.
God bless you,
Eirik
--- End quote ---
So, you suggest that these angels did not volunteer like the vessels of wrath and son of destruction did? Let's double-check that:
"Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds ..."
"the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home..." NIV
"the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling..." ESV
"has also held in eternal chains those angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their assigned place..." ISV
"I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged..." NLV
I would have to disagree with you. It seems clear these angels/messengers willingly (voluntarily) left their own place, and therefore as a result were placed in "imperceptible bonds".
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Hi Daywalker,
I don't know if I understand what I highlighted in your above comments.
If these angels willingly or voluntarily left their own place, then it means they had free will and God is not sovereign.
Since only God has a free will, then it must have been the Father's will that these angels rebelled and left their appointed places.
Why did the Father will that they disobey Him is another mystery of the scriptures that will one day be revealed to us.
John
Craig:
I don't think that is right John. When I sin it is voluntary, I'm not being forced too and I do it willingly. That is the way God created me a broken sinning machine. God is not dragging me kicking and screaming to sin or anyone else.
Craig
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 12:21:43 PM ---If these angels willingly or voluntarily left their own place, then it means they had free will and God is not sovereign.
--- End quote ---
No it doesn't. People willingly sin all day long but that doesn't mean they have free will. We all have a will and things we volunteer to do. But our will is not free of cause and circumstances that we cannot control. God is the author of all causes & circumstance in everyone's life.
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 12:21:43 PM ---Since only God has a free will, then it must have been the Father's will that these angels rebelled and left their appointed places.
--- End quote ---
Free will does not exist, so no one has it. It's a myth, similar to a rock so heavy even God can't lift it...no such thing exists.
Marques
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Craig on June 30, 2011, 12:45:29 PM ---I don't think that is right John. When I sin it is voluntary, I'm not being forced too and I do it willingly. That is the way God created me a broken sinning machine. God is not dragging me kicking and screaming to sin or anyone else.
Craig
--- End quote ---
I agree Craig. God made us sinning machines.
It therefore follows that He created those angels sinning machines too. We sin. Angels sin. We are physical. Angels are spiritual.
Which raises the question of why both a physical creation and a spiritual creation? I think this is where Ray's studies are headed. Why did the Father need a physical creation?
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