> General Discussions
AGE OR ETERNAL ?
daywalker:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 01:27:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Craig on June 30, 2011, 12:45:29 PM ---I don't think that is right John. When I sin it is voluntary, I'm not being forced too and I do it willingly. That is the way God created me a broken sinning machine. God is not dragging me kicking and screaming to sin or anyone else.
Craig
--- End quote ---
I agree Craig. God made us sinning machines.
It therefore follows that He created those angels sinning machines too. We sin. Angels sin. We are physical. Angels are spiritual.
Which raises the question of why both a physical creation and a spiritual creation? I think this is where Ray's studies are headed. Why did the Father need a physical creation?
--- End quote ---
Both Marques and Craig have responded the same way I would have regarding free will, so I won't repeat it. (thanks guys!)
I would like to add, in response to this particular comment, that I am of the "opinion" that the messengers spoken of in Jude are not spirit beings, but humans (notice that in the very next verse Jude mentions the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah). I hold the same "opinion" regarding the messengers spoken of in 2 Peter 2 (again, notice in the very next verse Peter mentions the sins of the ancient world who were killed in the Flood).
Daywalker 8)
PS: I said "opinion", so if you don't agree that's fine.
eggi:
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 30, 2011, 10:22:31 AM ---
Sorry, Eirik, I missed this part of your reply yesterday:
--- Quote from: eggi on June 29, 2011, 01:26:53 PM ---Your point about "invisible bonds" is a good observation, but it doesn't quite match. These angels are in restraint, they are kept from doing something they want, whereas the vessels of wrath and the son of destruction voluntereed, and they weren't restrained.
God bless you,
Eirik
--- End quote ---
So, you suggest that these angels did not volunteer like the vessels of wrath and son of destruction did? Let's double-check that:
"Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds ..."
"the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home..." NIV
"the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling..." ESV
"has also held in eternal chains those angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their assigned place..." ISV
"I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged..." NLV
I would have to disagree with you. It seems clear these angels/messengers willingly (voluntarily) left their own place, and therefore as a result were placed in "imperceptible bonds".
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
I expressed myself in a clumsy way. What I meant is that NOW these angels are in restraints, and they cannot do what they want to do. Of course, they sinned voluntarily. By the way, if these angels/messengers are humans as you pointed out, could it be that the chains that bind them is death?
This thread headed exactly where I was hoping for. Quite a few pearls here. I'm just trying to have as much information as I can, so that I can be able to explain (better and better) why I believe the way I do. However, you are all absolutely right in what you say, if God doesn't reveal this to someone, they won't get it.
God bless you all,
Eirik
daywalker:
--- Quote from: eggi on June 30, 2011, 05:01:52 PM ---
I expressed myself in a clumsy way. What I meant is that NOW these angels are in restraints, and they cannot do what they want to do. Of course, they sinned voluntarily. By the way, if these angels/messengers are humans as you pointed out, could it be that the chains that bind them is death?
This thread headed exactly where I was hoping for. Quite a few pearls here. I'm just trying to have as much information as I can, so that I can be able to explain (better and better) why I believe the way I do. However, you are all absolutely right in what you say, if God doesn't reveal this to someone, they won't get it.
God bless you all,
Eirik
--- End quote ---
I think it has more to do with blindness or deception, but now that you mention it, I think you could include death in there as well ("For to set the mind on the flesh is death" Romans 8:6). For example, a televangelist on TBN, whose mind is set on money and materialism, rather than on preaching the Gospel Truth, has "abandoned his assigned place" as a preacher of Christ and instead is "dead in his trespasses" Ephesians 2:5. Therefore, his "imperceptible bonds" that blind/deceive him are money, materialism (not to mention pride and self-gratification as a result of all the many followers he has that practically worship him).
Something like that... Daywalker 8)
PS: Paul also says in Romans 1, that God gives those who "suppress the truth" over to the "lusts of their own hearts". So we know that even though it's the "money" that drives the televangelist, it's also (still) God behind the curtain.
markn902:
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 30, 2011, 10:10:46 AM ---Hey Mark,
Let's not forget that 1st part of the definition of "eternal" is "without beginning"; it doesn't just mean endless time. From what I understand, the Latin word "aeternus" used to carry the same basic meaning as the Greek "aionios" - pertaining to an eon/age (a period of time with beginning and ending). But thanks to religion that is no longer the case, and therefore eternal is no longer an accurate translation of aion/aionios. Aidios, on the other hand is more similar to Hades than it is to aion/aionios. It has nothing to do with time as I showed in my previous post where I presented the two verses in which it is found.
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Excellent point :)
Joel:
I haven't had any problem with the words, forever, ever and ever, evermore, and everlasting at all for some 35 years now. Back when I learned to my satisfaction that they are all "periods of time" when used in context with what the scriptures are saying.
I also think that when Eternal is used it is referring to God, seeing he is the invisible one, and has all power to give us his life, that is "eternal". We are not eternal but he gives us his life that is, He is the only one that has life without intermission. And the damnation to those that don't have his life, are receiving a judgement that is in effect a "dam" that is holding them back and preventing them from doing more of their wickedness for a everlasting period of time, All that comes from an Eternal God.
Luke 18:18
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to "inherit" eternal life?
Rays does the best job of anyone I know, when it comes to standing toe to toe and teaching the way he does concerning these related subjects, it has to be a gift of God. :)
Joel
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