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AGE OR ETERNAL ?
eggi:
Thank you for your links to posts, Kat - I already read those.
What I'm saying is, there must be some sources where this is explained in detail. I've found sources (a 100$ book) which explains why aidios is derived from aei = always and idios = same, although not in a very convincing way, so there must exist a SCHOLAR who can explain why aidios should be translated unsee, DESPITE the fact that Plato uses aidios in the sense of eternal.
--- Quote from: Kat on June 29, 2011, 02:37:23 PM ---
Hi eggi,
You are going to have a really hard time finding any scholars that will speak of aidios meaning anything but eternal. But here are a few more places where Ray says something about it.
--- End quote ---
I'm beginning to think I will have a really hard time finding scholars too. I know that they won't say that in theological seminaries. However, I've found some theologians who admit that aion/aionios does not mean eternal, but they say that aidios is the only word in the Scriptures which means eternal.
I thank you again for your replies.
God bless you all,
Eirik
daywalker:
--- Quote from: eggi on June 29, 2011, 01:26:53 PM ---Thanks for your reply Daywalker. I am of the same opinion as you. However, I would like to see some more detailed explanation on why it is correct to translate aidios as unseen.
What I have now is really not proving anything:
Nathaniel Scarlett on Jude 1:6 "unseen chains" . . .
“Most Lexicon writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever or always: but it may have the same etymology as [h]ades, which they derive from a negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means unknown; because we see or know only a very small part of God's power.”
A statement like this does not prove. Scarlett himselves says: ... it may have the same etymology ... It doesn't demonstrated why. I'm looking for sources with explanations.
I repeat, I am of the same opinion as you. I think it's very probable that aidios means unseen. I see that the context of both Jude and 2 Peter speaks of dark (unseen) things. Nevertheless, it is not crystal clear that this means unseen. Many sources say that this word comes from aei = always and idios = same. I'm not a Greek scholar, obviously, so I'm looking for something more detailed than Scarlett's quote. Your point about "invisible bonds" is a good observation, but it doesn't quite match. These angels are in restraint, they are kept from doing something they want, whereas the vessels of wrath and the son of destruction voluntereed, and they weren't restrained.
There must be some scholars who can explain why unseen is a probable translation. Does anyone have a concordance or lexicon of any kind which explains the origin of the word in detail?
God bless you,
Eirik
--- End quote ---
I don't understand, Eirik, what more do you need? Words in any language can vary in meaning. It's the context that defines the usage. Take "Hades" for example. The Scriptures use "Hades" 12 times. In Ancient Greek mythology, Hades was both a place and a god. Does this mean the Scriptures teach that there's a real place called Hades and a god named Hades that runs it? Of course not. The Scriptural usage clearly shows that Hades has the same meaning that "Sheol" in the Hebrew Scripture means--the unseen realm of the dead, essentially "unconsciousness". Likewise, the Scriptural usage of "aidios" shows clearly what it means--Scripturally speaking--and that is "invisible, imperceptible".
If you really NEED a bunch of scholar's opinions, then you can find them everywhere on the Internet, in a library, etc. Problem is "scholarly opinion" won't help you much if you're looking for "debating material" because for every scholar that supports your beliefs, there are scholars that support those of your opposition. So, in other words, the opinion of scholars won't do you much good. That's why I go straight to the source: the Scriptures. Who cares what some great scholarly man with 6 doctorate degrees says? Was Jesus impressed by the wise men of His day? Nope. Were the Apostles impressed? Nope. So, why should we? Most of the deception that has come from the Church was because of what "scholars" claimed to be true.
I'm no scholar myself. I have a Hebrew/Greek dictionary and a few Bible Concordances. I use them often; but even I (being a "non-scholar") can see various errors and mistakes made by the "scholars" who wrote these dictionaries and concordances because I compare what they say with the Scriptures and can clearly see they fall short....often.
Just sayin... Daywalker 8)
sansmile:
ONLY the Holy Spirit will reveal, until then you will keep searching .............i saY this in LOVE XX
markn902:
Hi
A quick word on aidos as it is used in Jude. I believe it is correct to translate this word as eternal or at least it has that meaning way back when. And it is used in the same sense that aionios is used in other parts of the scripture HOWEVER I believe that ,like aionios, it can be limited by what it is describing and quite simply this is the case in Jude.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness UNTILthe judgment of the great day. (kjv)
Had it said kept in aidios chains and simply left it at that then I think the argument for eternal could be made. But these angels are kept in chains UNTIL something else happens. If it was eternal then there would be no "something else"
I believe in this sense it is merely a figure of speech. Like " I was at the DMV forever" not really because if you were at the DMV "forever you would still be there. :) As for translating it "unseen" I think that is reaching a bit and for no good reason. There were plenty of words to describe unseen/imperceptible at the time and I think there is a ton of evidence to that suggests the ancients had the idea of forever when they said aidios. But in this sense, in this verse, it is limited by an event that happens in the future
daywalker:
--- Quote from: markn902 on June 29, 2011, 09:39:52 PM ---Hi
A quick word on aidos as it is used in Jude. I believe it is correct to translate this word as eternal or at least it has that meaning way back when. And it is used in the same sense that aionios is used in other parts of the scripture HOWEVER I believe that ,like aionios, it can be limited by what it is describing and quite simply this is the case in Jude.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness UNTILthe judgment of the great day. (kjv)
Had it said kept in aidios chains and simply left it at that then I think the argument for eternal could be made. But these angels are kept in chains UNTIL something else happens. If it was eternal then there would be no "something else"
I believe in this sense it is merely a figure of speech. Like " I was at the DMV forever" not really because if you were at the DMV "forever you would still be there. :) As for translating it "unseen" I think that is reaching a bit and for no good reason. There were plenty of words to describe unseen/imperceptible at the time and I think there is a ton of evidence to that suggests the ancients had the idea of forever when they said aidios. But in this sense, in this verse, it is limited by an event that happens in the future
--- End quote ---
Hey Mark,
Let's not forget that 1st part of the definition of "eternal" is "without beginning"; it doesn't just mean endless time. From what I understand, the Latin word "aeternus" used to carry the same basic meaning as the Greek "aionios" - pertaining to an eon/age (a period of time with beginning and ending). But thanks to religion that is no longer the case, and therefore eternal is no longer an accurate translation of aion/aionios. Aidios, on the other hand is more similar to Hades than it is to aion/aionios. It has nothing to do with time as I showed in my previous post where I presented the two verses in which it is found.
Daywalker 8)
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